Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[Simulacrum]

Unlike magical shape-shifting abilities, the Doppleganger's is non-magical and thus, not detectable through its magical aura. That, alone, justifies one of the levels.

Nope you are wrong it supernatural it is detectable in 3.5.
A anti magic will supress this ability and show the true face of the Doppelganger too.

Thats a piece of crap not more worth than a wizard casting a low level illusion.
If the same low end Wizard casts Alter self on him, he is better in flexibilty than the Doppelganger could dream off with his ECL of 8!

 

[Technik4]

Sigh

From the 3.5 MM

Drow Traits (Ex):
Humanoid (Elf)
+2 Int, +2 Cha
Base Speed 30 ft
Darkvision 120 feet
SR 11+class levels
Immunity to Sleep Spells and +2 bonus against enchantments
+2 bonus on Will saves against spells
+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot
Auto-Detect Secret Doors if within 5 ft.
Spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire
Weapon Prof: Hand X-bow, Rapier, and Shortsword
Light Blindness
LA +2

Doppleganger
Monstrous Humanoid (Shapeshifter)
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha
Base Speed 30 ft.
Darkvision 60 ft.
+4 Nat. Armor
Immunity to Sleep and Charm effects
+4 Bluff, +4 Disguise
Slam Attack (1d6)
Proficient with Simple Weapons
Special Attacks: Detect Thoughts coninually in use- Caster Level 18, DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha. If a doppleganger manages to detect thoughts on an opponent, it gains an additional +4 circumstance to Bluff and Disguise.
Special Qualities: Change Shape- Assume any small or medium humanoid form. Cannot be dispelled. Can be detected by True Seeing (only?). When using Change Shape gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus to Disguise.
LA +4

This isn't just a roleplaying bonus. I mean, besides the fact that a doppleganger is the ultimate spy, saboteur, diplomat, and instigator his abilities are useful in battle. With something as simple as a ring of invisibility he can appear as one of the enemy during a fight, calling out false orders and disrupting the flow of combat (not to mention possibly anticipating intelligent enemies tactics via Detect Thoughts).

Compared to the Dark Elf it is, as is becoming usual, no contest. +10 more ability points, more skill bonuses (albeit more focused in Bluff and Disguise), better immunities, and far better spell-like effects. The drow's SR is very good (but also 2 levels behind the party level, more than likely, reducing its effectiveness) but is roughly balanced by the doppleganger's +4 Nat. Armor. Other than that the drow boast slightly better proficiencies (which either get as a rogue), the patented "Auto Elf Door Detection" and their weakness, Light Blindness (which can be negated by spending a feat).

How on earth are the drow better? I mean, lets make ANY type of character, if both of those races are considered LA +2 the doppleganger OWNS over the elf ability-wise. So, at the very least, it is NOT an LA +2. If you play a straight combat game, I can see making the LA +3 (as long as you are also taking 4 levels of Monstrous Humanoid) but that is as far as I would go. Well actually I would reduce the number of M.H. levels to 3. So ECL +6 you get to play a doppleganger in my combat-heavy, don't-ask-to-go-spying (which is why you are a doppleganger anyway) game.

In ANY OTHER TYPE of game, the doppleganger is quite powerful at LA +4 and ECL +8. I believe one of the WotC designers played on in 3e (as an ECL +8) and was finally killed by a BBEG spell (he didn't have enough hp, I think it was a doppleganger wizard).

My final thoughts are: you'd be nuts to let even a 1st level doppleganger into your game unless you are ready for all your plots to go awry and for one of the PCs to (possibly) be stealing the lime-light all session.

Technik

 

[James McMurray]

Can you point to where it says it is only cosmetic? My MM doesn't specify either way.

 

[Simulacrum]

HAHA, thats utter crap, this is not the way to calculate LA's

An 6th level Drow could be an Rouge/ Assassin. With spells and spell like abilties to be even better than the Dopellganger on his own field. The drow can a) negate his light blindness simply by casting darkness on himself. In 3.5 this is no problem for him.
He can cast spells as Assassin that give him more flexibilty than the laughable Change Shape ability from the Doppelganger, as it gives him physical stats and boni from the creatures he alters into. Its also only detectable through true seeing as it is no illusion. Detect magic detects both the supernatural ability of the Doppelganger and the Alter Self spell. But it cant tell the true nature of both too. Jsut that something is magical about the creature

Not to mention that the drow wil kill the Doppelganger in 2 rounds.
The Doppelganger is a joke, and so is his ECL of 8. PERIOD.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

HAHA, thats utter crap, this is not the way to calculate LA's
Not to mention that the drow wil kill the Doppelganger in 2 rounds.
The Doppelganger is a joke, and so is his ECL of 8. PERIOD.

Combat is not the deciding factor in the game, either.

And why did you post this if you refuse to accept any other opinion on the matter?

 

[Simulacrum]

Can you point to where it says it is only cosmetic? My MM doesn't specify either way.

MM page: 306

It says that you gain the movement mode of the creature and extraordenary attacks, but the Doppelganger is restricted to Humanoids. And you cant Change Shape into Templates, not even Alter Self or Polymorph allow that. So no Half Celestial flying and smiting.

Other than that *benefit* that is none, it doesnt do ANYTHING.

 

[Simulacrum]

Combat is not the deciding factor in the game, either.

And why did you post this if you refuse to accept any other opinion on the matter?

I dont refuse them. But I have not seen a singe logic word on the balance issue yet, and its true.

Combat CAN be a deciding factor, and for determing ECL its one of the ALL DECIDING factors. Dont believe me? Check out the Half Celestial. This is ECL 4.

The Doppelganger is compareable to a drow (not as strong but on the same field at least) +2 ECL not more not less.
All the great benefits of the Doppelganger are nothing but a joke to what a 8th level character can do.

An average 4th level fighter can down him with a single blow.
A wizard can unmask him with magic
A rogue can Sense Motive him with ease at 8th level,
A cleric can blow his cover with detect lies.

The doppelganger can die out of just any natural and unatural effects. While the Half Celestial will survive anthing natural and most unatural attacks.

The doppelganger is weak in combat while the half celestial rules the field. The doppelganger has two spell like abilties.
The Half celstial has about 16.

The Half celestial has DR, SR, and his body is a magical weaon,

The half celestial can fly away, cross great distances, can make enemy fighter and monsters useless.

The half celestial gets more Skill points.

The half celestial has much better stats.

The doppelganger has nothing but his bare fists. and +4 natural armour. That gives him AC 14. While the Half Celestial with DR and Fullplate (fighter 4) beats the greay matter out of him.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I dont refuse them. But I have not seen a singe logic word on the balance issue yet, and its true.

Combat CAN be a deciding factor, and for determing ECL its one of the ALL DECIDING factors. Dont believe me? Check out the Half Celestial. This is ECL 4.

The Doppelganger is compareable to a drow (not as strong but on the same field at least) +2 ECL not more not less.
All the great benefits of the Doppelganger are nothing but a joke to what a 8th level character can do.

It definatly would NOT be a joke if it was a PC. The ability to look exactly like your enemy, figure out the thoughts of the guards to the enemy keep, then walk through knowing every password, etc without having a single of spellcasting class required is DEFINATLY a strong trait.

The fact is, Doppelganger's do NOT excel in combat. They aren't meant to. Which is why comparing it to creatures/templtes that ARE combat focussed makes the Doppelganger look so weak.

 

[Simulacrum]

It definatly would NOT be a joke if it was a PC. The ability to look exactly like your enemy, figure out the thoughts of the guards to the enemy keep, then walk through knowing every password, etc without having a single of spellcasting class required is DEFINATLY a strong trait.

The fact is, Doppelganger's do NOT excel in combat. They aren't meant to. Which is why comparing it to creatures/templtes that ARE combat focussed makes the Doppelganger look so weak.

WHAT? That is the most hillarious thing I have ever heard.
I would feel royaly PISSED and hellbend to kill the designers if I was forced to play a Doppelganger in an 8th level campaing, because its no fun dying and never be able to get up a level because you cant do sXXXt. Other than reading some minds and cosmeticaly alter yourself. The party wizard laughs at you constantly while you get degraded to mop the streets after the party just takes the front door while you tried to do it the sneaky way, but just couldnt do anything than walk around and fool some doorwaiters, as you had no chance to fool an 8th level character.

Every other character who just takes two level as wizard is better off in every respect. +4 AC? Cast Mage Armour. Want to look like your enemy? Cast Alter Self and Disguise on top (+20 to disguise)
You want to read minds? No prob just cast the spell!

Detect thought doesnt reveal passwords, only surface thoughts.
If the enemy ist just thinking about the password carelessly every minute it wont be revealed. Oh and the DC is 14 *lol*

Maybe its a strong trait for you, but for ECL 8 its CRAP.

Also this is not how to judge LA's as I allready said.
Combat should be the main factor and overall bonus and performance + features should determine the LA's. Saying it is not so doesnt change that it is true.
Experienced gamers and ruleslawyers will agree.

Again Roleplaying benefits/penalty's should NEVER be calculated into the LA's. This is not the way Character races and Templates balance are calculated. If you dont believe ask the designers.

 

[Simulacrum]

Dark Elves out of the FRSC get +2 dex too.
that gives them +2dex +2int +2cha -2con.

And taking a short peek at the races fearun book, they have some other nice benefits that make them even better.