• Welcome to this new upgrade of the site. We are now on a totally different software platform. Many things will be different, and bugs are expected. Certain areas (like downloads and reviews) will take longer to import. As always, please use the Meta Forum for site queries or bug reports. Note that we (the mods and admins) are also learning the new software.
  • The RSS feed for the news page has changed. Use this link. The old one displays the forums, not the news.

5E Double Dash

Jer

Explorer
Quick question: do you allow monks, rogues, and users of expeditious retreat to "double dash" (bonus action dash, action dash, move with their regular speed)? Or do you limit them to only using a given action once per turn?

I suspect most allow for double dashing. It does mean that Rogues and others are much faster than other characters in chases or other things like that. If you limit someone to only using the dash action once per round, then those abilities are more about multitasking (attacking while dashing) rather than inherent speed boosts.

What are your thoughts?
I mean, it's never come up but I'm having a hard time seeing why I'd disallow it. Either they're running away faster than the rest of the party, they're chasing down something that is trying to get away from the party, or they're trying to get into melee combat faster.

In the first case, I either catch the rest of the party or I don't - if the rogue/monk gets away and the rest of the party doesn't then they get to sit out the combat or decide to come back and help. Doesn't seem like a concern. In the second case maybe they catch it - oh well, being a monk or a rogue means being fast so that's just part of why they're playing that character. And now they have to face whatever it is solo - it may be something that was worried about facing the whole party, but isn't so concerned about putting the beatdown on one chump who catches up to it when the rest of the party is a round or two behind. And in the third case the rogue/monk is rushing into melee combat. Which is what I want to encourage my players to do, rather than sit back and lob arrows at things.

So am I missing something? Is there a reason to disallow it that I'm not spotting?
 

jaelis

Explorer
I like the idea of saying 3x move per round is really the fastest a creature can go, and reflects their "racing speed." Rogues and monks can readily move that fast in combat, but other characters have to make a check or perform a special action ('run") to do so.

So am I missing something? Is there a reason to disallow it that I'm not spotting?
I don't like the fact that simply being a monk or a rogue would make you so much faster than everyone else.
 
Last edited:

TwoSix

Lover of things you hate
If there's anything more fun than casting Haste on a Monk so they can triple-Dash at double speed, I don't know what it is.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad day
No. Would you give another character 2 bonus actions per turn just because they have access to more than 1?
Irrelevant. They were specifically talking about a bonus action dash and an action dash. This is the same as a sorcerer casting a quickened cantrip and the same cantrip as their action, which is just fine.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad day
Sure I allow double Dash in those cases. It's a heroic game of fireballs and dragons - this seems an odd hill to head towards realism on. It fits both RAW and RAF. And considering double actions already exist with things like action surge, it also seems to fit RAI.

Along those lines, the rogue / fighter that wants to Action surge to get in Dash-Dash-Dash for one round can go for it.
 

aco175

Explorer
I'm heavy leaning towards not allowing it under a "can't take the same action twice" clause, and to distinguish what cunning action is (multitasking).
I'm not sure I know what using the same action twice rule is. I just cannot recall it in the rules. Some of the other examples make sense about attacking and using cantrips. I know about the specific beats general rule and it seems this may fall into that rule.

I kind of see it as taking your move, using your action to dash, and then using your specific power to dash again. Other PCs do not have the cool power to let them break the rule. This may have come up in my game, but mostly the rogue uses disengage more than dash, or hide.
 

WaterRabbit

Villager
So for sprinting, the world record is just under 10 seconds for the 100 meter, which is just over 22 mph or 32 fps or 192 feet per round. A rogue that moves 30, then dashes for 30, the bonus dashes for 30 is running 10 mph -- hardly Usain Bolt speeds.

The 200 meter sprint record is just under twice the 100 meter record. However, by the time we get to the 400 meter, people are starting to slow down at 43 seconds (7 D&D rounds of continuously using dash).

So, if you go by the chase rules and have characters start making Con checks at 3+Con Modifier of using Dash, it probably works out just find with the real world records. If you are using the variant encumbrance rules, it helps a bit to slow down rogues (but not monks).

In 3.x D&D and Pathfinder you can run at 3x base while heavily encumbered and 4x base while lightly encumbered -- however, you would lose your Dex AC bonus to AC while doing so. It also costs the entire round to do so. There was also the run feat which increased it to 4x base and 5x base. So even if you allowed characters to run 5x base speed they still are not beating any world records.

If you don't want to see builds with spells and magic items in which a character can run 1 mile in a round, you might cap people at 10x base since it makes it kind of hard to use a battle mat with characters running at that speed. :)
 

Xeviat

Explorer
I'm not sure I know what using the same action twice rule is. I just cannot recall it in the rules. Some of the other examples make sense about attacking and using cantrips. I know about the specific beats general rule and it seems this may fall into that rule.

I kind of see it as taking your move, using your action to dash, and then using your specific power to dash again. Other PCs do not have the cool power to let them break the rule. This may have come up in my game, but mostly the rogue uses disengage more than dash, or hide.

Not an existing rule, it would be a house rule.

As I said, this is mostly because I'm going to have athletics checks for increasing speed, and I need a point to build that on. Either I allow double dashing (action dash, bonus dash, move) and base "fastest human" around someone who can bonus dash who has the mobile feat ... Or I say you can't use dash twice and make those abilities about multitasking.

I'm inclined to disallow double dashing because people can jog at around 6 mph for hours, and that requires the dash action. Double dashing would require an extra endurance consideration in the rules I'm writing, and it's far easier to avoid it.

Action Surge is an interesting case. I'd be inclined to not worry about it since it is a per rest ability and not something that can be done every round like cunning action.
 

WaterRabbit

Villager
Not an existing rule, it would be a house rule.

As I said, this is mostly because I'm going to have athletics checks for increasing speed, and I need a point to build that on. Either I allow double dashing (action dash, bonus dash, move) and base "fastest human" around someone who can bonus dash who has the mobile feat ... Or I say you can't use dash twice and make those abilities about multitasking.

I'm inclined to disallow double dashing because people can jog at around 6 mph for hours, and that requires the dash action. Double dashing would require an extra endurance consideration in the rules I'm writing, and it's far easier to avoid it.

Action Surge is an interesting case. I'd be inclined to not worry about it since it is a per rest ability and not something that can be done every round like cunning action.
I think you are way too conservative on what people can do. People with long legs or a fast stride can walk at 6 mph. I walk at 5 mph and one of my buddies at 6'6" easily out paced me. People run at 10 mph jogs easily for a few hours.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
If the rogue or monk or even fighter wants to spend all their focus on movement for one turn, I don't see a good reason to not allow that to happen.
 

Jer

Explorer
I'm inclined to disallow double dashing because people can jog at around 6 mph for hours, and that requires the dash action. Double dashing would require an extra endurance consideration in the rules I'm writing, and it's far easier to avoid it.
Your game is yours, but I'd consider the kind of movement you need to be able to do in combat rounds to be very different from the kind of movement you need to do to maintain speed for hours.

I mean, I can outpace a guy on a bike for a few seconds as we both get started, and if we have to make zig-zaggy movement instead of straight line movement I can maybe even keep ahead of him for a while, but you can't extrapolate from that to a race - or even the pace that I could keep for 10 minutes let alone hours.
 

iserith

Explorer
Your game is yours, but I'd consider the kind of movement you need to be able to do in combat rounds to be very different from the kind of movement you need to do to maintain speed for hours.
For what it's worth, the rules also specifically call out a character's or monster's speed as being "short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life-threatening situation."
 

jgsugden

Explorer
If there's anything more fun than casting Haste on a Monk so they can triple-Dash at double speed, I don't know what it is.
A hasted monk gets double their movement on each move action and can take their normal move and dash with their bonus (using Step of the Wind), Action, and Haste Action. If it is an Aaracockra monk with a 50 base speed that has +30 movement from being a high level monk, that means they can travel ((50+30)X2)X4=640 feet in a round. That is 72 MPH, roughly. It is also not going to break anything as many characters of that level can instantaneously relocate themselves via teleportation in most situations. There are a few oddball exceptions where it becomes a huge deal (my Aaracokra spellcasting pirate that flys around with improved invisible and blasts things from a huge distance certainly gets a lot out of his high speed), but for the most part it is essentially the equivalent of what shadow monks get at 6th level - unlimited conditional teleportation.
 

DEFCON 1

Hero
As a table rule I allow every PC to triple-move, as well as double-move with disengage. My table rules for the Dash action and Disengage action are as follows:

Full Sprint: If you use your action to Dash, you may also Dash with a bonus action.
Tactical Retreat: If you use your action to Disengage, you may also Dash with your bonus action.

When you take a PC's movement also into account, it means anyone who makes a Full Sprint moves 3 times their speed, and anyone who makes a Tactical Retreat moves 2 times their speed without generating Opportunity Attacks.

It does slightly step on the Rogue and Monk's toes... but they are still the only ones who can Dash or Disengage as bonus actions while making attacks or casting spells with their actions. So it has not caused any issues, and it stops the silliness of only rogues and monks being able to move 3 times their speed while anyone else can only move 2.
 

aco175

Explorer
I may be tempted to make a check after a certain number of rounds, maybe Con bonus. This way the PCs with the ability can use it for a round or two before needing to make an Athletics check. Kind of like a cheetah jumping out to attack vs a wolf tiring it to death.
 

Esker

Explorer
I may be tempted to make a check after a certain number of rounds, maybe Con bonus. This way the PCs with the ability can use it for a round or two before needing to make an Athletics check. Kind of like a cheetah jumping out to attack vs a wolf tiring it to death.
There is actually a rule to this effect in the DMG. In a chase context, you can dash a number of times equal to 3 + your CON modifier, and after that they need to make a CON check each additional time they try to dash. Note that it doesn't say "on a number of rounds equal to your CON modifier", so that means that while a rogue or monk can most definitely dash twice in a turn, if they have a 16 CON, say, then they burn through their free dashes in three rounds. It makes the rogue and monk like sprinters; they can turn on their speed for 18 seconds, but in doing that they wear out sooner.
 

Esker

Explorer
It's also useful to note (not that I think anyone in this thread is getting this wrong) that dashes don't double your speed, they just add your speed to your remaining movement. So dashing twice is a triple move, not a quadruple move.

Now if you're a hasted Tabaxi monk, your base speed is 45' doubled to 90' from haste, which you can double to 180' using Feline agility, and then dash three times, for 720' in the round. Feline agility only works in combat though, so not relevant to a chase.
 

Advertisement

Top