5E Double Dash

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Because I do not want to remove Rogues and Monks ability to have more flexible Bonus action for double Dash, but still give option for all classes to get 3×speed in some situations.
There is a step in there that I don’t understand.

edit: low blood sugar sometimes makes me suck at extrapolation. I get it now.

I think I’d go some other way to balance it, or, make full run a general rule without those restrictions and an athletics check to increase speed, but give a character who can dash twice advantage on athletics checks to determine extra speed.

The monk and rogue are balanced by the monk’s extra movement be the rogue’s Expertise and eventual Reliable Talent, Barbarians are faster while raging, fighters...need an extra skill and 1 Expertise tbh.

Rant: Also Natural Explorer should give movement oriented benefits that are especially helpful in the associated terrain, but can be useful anywhere, like ignoring difficult terrain when dashing for Forest, and acclimation to things relevant, like high altitude, or the pressure of the deep, etc. Things that translate survival skill into non-travel related benefits. /rant
 
Last edited:

ad_hoc

Adventurer
I guess it feels arbitrary for some of us to have a nebulous switch between in combat and out of combat. I mean, we know when combat starts (when initiative rolls), but when does combat end? When does combat turn into a chase if someone flees? I feel like we sort of have rules for this, but it feels weird to me to have certain things change (like the rogue can move 90 feet in 6 seconds in combat, a combat that could last 5-10 rounds, or more, depending on what is going on), but is suddenly dropped down to 60 in a chase (and now has a counter on how many dashes they can use before getting tired).
So, the sticking point for you is chases?

It all depends on how you handle them. You could just make them part of the combat model. It's still combat, it's just everyone is moving.

You could also have them be a series of obstacles to be overcome with powers or ability checks.

The latter is how I want to handle chases and in that case choosing to 'double dash' would be a guaranteed way to get a 'leg up' in the chase. Which makes sense as those characters are good at it.

Overland travel is travel measured in hours. The length might not even be tracked unless there is something time sensitive.
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
This isn't Mario Kart, we don't Double Dash.

I see Dash as a Bonus Action as giving more options in the action economy.

Attack, Move, Dash.

Hide, Move, Dash.

Disarm Trap, Move, Dash.

Spell, Move, Dash.
Youre OK to do it that way, but if a Rogue with 30' movement dashes twice and moves, he has 90'of movement that round.

Dashing is an action that grants you additional movement equal to your speed. Nothing in that prohibits a Rogue from using the same action twice and gaining aditional movement equal to 2 x speed.

Same deal with action surging fighters who [Dash] + [Dash] + move, or Action surging Fighter/ Rogues who [Dash] + [Dash] + [Dash] + move.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Have you considered allowing Athletics checks to go faster as part of taking the Dash action, once per turn? Doing so as an action is implied in the description of Strength ability checks, IIRC, but codifying it a bit might help in this case.

Much like jump distance, the hard numbers represent what is possible without a roll.

But also Expertise needs to be less exclusive. Rogues and Bards get 4 each. Other characters could get 1 in tier 1 and another in tier 3 and it wouldn’t break anything at all.
My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.

Design constraints: minimum intrusion

Your solution: add concrete sub-system for using athletics to run faster. Because rogues will now run even faster because expertise (lacking in fighters), add and balance change to class progression to add limited expertise choice to all classes so they can choose to offset rogue run fast options.

Result: rogues still run faster because the original issue is untouched and all fixes also apply to rogues. Game much more complicated and further from baseline.

My solution (if I were inclined): you can't dash twice.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Oh noes some classes have features my other class does not. BOO HOO. I have no problems with Thieves spending all their actions moving 90 feet away. Unless as a free action they farted and we had pork and beans for dinner last night.
 

dnd4vr

Hero
RUN (bonus action): When you take the Dash action, you can use your bonus action to Run. Make a DC 5 Strength (Athletics) check to add double your speed to your Dash. Each round you Dash and Run, the DC increases by 1. If you fail the check, you cannot Run the next round.

SPRINT (bonus action): When you take the Dash action, you can use your bonus action to Sprint. Make a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to add triple your speed to your Dash. Each round you Dash and Sprint, the DC increases by 2. If you fail the check, you cannot Sprint for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds you Sprinted. You cannot use Reactions while Sprinting. You cannot Sprint over Difficult terrain unless you have a feature that allows you to ignore Difficult terrain. You must Sprint in a straight line, but your other Movement need not be in a straight line.

Results:

Normal: dash and move (60 feet total) is a brisk walk or slow jog (6.8 mph or 8.8-minute mile).

Run: dash + run (bonus action) + move (120 feet) is a quick run or "double-time", which is of course, 13.6 mph or about 4.4-minute mile (very respectable, if you could make the ability checks to maintain it).

Sprint: dash + sprint (bonus action) + move (150 feet) is an all-out movement, 17 mph or 13.2-second 100-meter sprint (pretty good, but not great).

Add mobility, Fast Movement, etc. and the Sprint becomes (200 feet) or a 10-second 100-meter (world class).

It is a bit fast for some character concepts, and I've been thinking about tweaking it some more... but that's how we do it anyway. :)
 
Last edited:

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh noes some classes have features my other class does not. BOO HOO. I have no problems with Thieves spending all their actions moving 90 feet away. Unless as a free action they farted and we had pork and beans for dinner last night.
Nope. No problem with classes doing different things. I like rogues being able to do lots of things. Fight and dash. Spell and dash. Some other thing and dash. Very thematic, very cool.

But there's no real explanation as to why rogues can just run faster. Note I have no issues with the monk doing so -- it's thematic and tied to resources. Rogues don't run fast because it's thenatic, they run fast because of a mechanical interaction. Yawn, not interesting.

Of course, this bothers me soooo much I've done nothing at all about it. Your hasty dismissal has motivated me more.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Nope. No problem with classes doing different things. I like rogues being able to do lots of things. Fight and dash. Spell and dash. Some other thing and dash. Very thematic, very cool.

But there's no real explanation as to why rogues can just run faster. Note I have no issues with the monk doing so -- it's thematic and tied to resources. Rogues don't run fast because it's thenatic, they run fast because of a mechanical interaction. Yawn, not interesting.

Of course, this bothers me soooo much I've done nothing at all about it. Your hasty dismissal has motivated me more.
Thematic. "Thieves are always slippery rogues who run away from the cops. This is dash, move, dash class. Thiefing 050 class." See Jasper's Kickstarter " 500 BS reasons to Justify class special abilities " for more information. Do you want me to reedit that in a different font and different wording to put in you PHB. The general public does not need each special feature spell.
It is a freaking rogue aka thief. Everyone knows those buggers seem to put on a burst of speed when ever there is trouble about. I am trying to think of one thief in literature, comics, books, who never out ran trouble. Except for story reason when they need to be captured for their big plan.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Thematic. "Thieves are always slippery rogues who run away from the cops. This is dash, move, dash class. Thiefing 050 class." See Jasper's Kickstarter " 500 BS reasons to Justify class special abilities " for more information. Do you want me to reedit that in a different font and different wording to put in you PHB. The general public does not need each special feature spell.
It is a freaking rogue aka thief. Everyone knows those buggers seem to put on a burst of speed when ever there is trouble about. I am trying to think of one thief in literature, comics, books, who never out ran trouble. Except for story reason when they need to be captured for their big plan.
So thematic it never existed before, isn't nentioned in the fluff, and disappears immediately in the chase mechanics?

Sure. Meanwhile, fighters are powerful athletes that are handily outrun by scrawny rogues, who, weirdly, aren't just half again faster but also better athletes.
 

DM Dave1

Adventurer
I think you are way too conservative on what people can do. People with long legs or a fast stride can walk at 6 mph. I walk at 5 mph and one of my buddies at 6'6" easily out paced me. People run at 10 mph jogs easily for a few hours.
Sorry, not to nitpick... but ok I'm totally nitpicking... the bolded part above is way off. There is nothing easy about it.

Here are the results of a popular 10 mile road race. Only 27 out of 946 people ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

Here are the results of a 20 mile road race known as a Boston Marathon prep race. Only 6 out of 582 participants ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

These people are avid, gifted runners who train a lot. No one is JOGGING at 10mph for hours. Certainly not adventurers carrying gear who don't train at distances (at least I haven't had any of my players ever say "my character goes out for a quick 10 mile run" during most every rest or downtime opportunity).

Point being, short bursts of speed for under a minute are far far more plausible than maintaining that speed "easily for a few hours".

EDIT: in case anyone is looking for the RAW rather than some real world analogy, the PHB says characters can travel 4 miles in 1 hour at a fast pace... (p 181)
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.

Design constraints: minimum intrusion

Your solution: add concrete sub-system for using athletics to run faster. Because rogues will now run even faster because expertise (lacking in fighters), add and balance change to class progression to add limited expertise choice to all classes so they can choose to offset rogue run fast options.

Result: rogues still run faster because the original issue is untouched and all fixes also apply to rogues. Game much more complicated and further from baseline.

My solution (if I were inclined): you can't dash twice.
Why shouldn’t rogues be faster than fighters?

Also my solution is to make the base speed ability the same for all characters, but someone with extra running features should be faster. And it’s not even complicated. It’s literally “you can use athletics to increase speed. You have advantage if you have a feature that allows you to dash as a bonus action.” It’s just a reasonable extrapolation or what the rules already present.
 

Esker

Explorer
So thematic it never existed before, isn't nentioned in the fluff, and disappears immediately in the chase mechanics?

Sure. Meanwhile, fighters are powerful athletes that are handily outrun by scrawny rogues, who, weirdly, aren't just half again faster but also better athletes.
They're only better athletes if they have expertise in athletics, and even then are probably still not better until fairly high levels due to starting with a -3 or -4 deficit in their strength score for typical builds, which expertise doesn't overcome until level 9 or 13. And even then, they're only better athletes for things that fall under the purview of the athletics skill (so, climbing, and grappling, mostly -- there's no reference to athletics for running in the rules, and even jumping depends heavily on the strength score itself). Much of what we normally refer to as athleticism IRL, particularly the things we tend to think fighters are going to be good at, just falls under straight STR or CON in the game.

And they're only half again faster in short bursts: as soon as it becomes a chase situation, they will only have the edge for the first 18 seconds or so, tops, after which the fighter (who probably has better CON, will start to catch up).

And in combat, where yes, they could theoretically double dash every round, how often do you end up wanting to double dash even twice in a row outside a chase?

This whole thread just feels like an attempt to address a nonexistent problem. Like, just let rogues have their things, man! Fighters are better at putting out and taking hurt (which weigh heavily in D&D); rogues are better at maneuvering, avoiding getting hurt, and utility.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
They're only better athletes if they have expertise in athletics, and even then are probably still not better until fairly high levels due to starting with a -3 or -4 deficit in their strength score for typical builds, which expertise doesn't overcome until level 9 or 13. And even then, they're only better athletes for things that fall under the purview of the athletics skill (so, climbing, and grappling, mostly -- there's no reference to athletics for running in the rules, and even jumping depends heavily on the strength score itself). Much of what we normally refer to as athleticism IRL, particularly the things we tend to think fighters are going to be good at, just falls under straight STR or CON in the game.

And they're only half again faster in short bursts: as soon as it becomes a chase situation, they will only have the edge for the first 18 seconds or so, tops, after which the fighter (who probably has better CON, will start to catch up).

And in combat, where yes, they could theoretically double dash every round, how often do you end up wanting to double dash even twice in a row outside a chase?

This whole thread just feels like an attempt to address a nonexistent problem. Like, just let rogues have their things, man! Fighters are better at putting out and taking hurt (which weigh heavily in D&D); rogues are better at maneuvering, avoiding getting hurt, and utility.
Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.

And the bit where it drops out if you go to chase or overland movement rules just underlines it's a mechanical artifact. I dislike mechanical artifacts that result in strains of suspension of disbelief. Note its note "rogue go fast" its the all the time and no one else can go fast. Except monks, where its a resource and very thematic.
 

DM Dave1

Adventurer
Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.
Athletic does not necessarily mean "able to run fast". Real life example: Tom Brady, amirite?
Remarkable Athlete just adds 1/2 proficiency to non-proficient STR, DEX, and CON checks and allows the Champion to long jump maybe 4 or 5 feet further. Note that non-proficient DEX checks would be Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth - none of which specifically deal with running speed.

And the bit where it drops out if you go to chase or overland movement rules just underlines it's a mechanical artifact. I dislike mechanical artifacts that result in strains of suspension of disbelief. Note its note "rogue go fast" its the all the time and no one else can go fast. Except monks, where its a resource and very thematic.
It seems good to note that speed in 6 second rounds of combat does not translate well to speed over hours of overland travel. Usain Bolt would not be the best at a marathon just because he can run 100m super fast. The rogue doesn't have movement advantages over long distances, just short distances.

Upon reviewing the Chase rules (PHB p252), I don't see that bonus actions are specifically prohibited. A PC can cast a spell or attack during a chase, so why not also be able to invoke their Cunning Action or Ki? So maybe bonus actions don't actually "drop off" here? Maybe I'm missing something.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Upon reviewing the Chase rules (PHB p252), I don't see that bonus actions are specifically prohibited. A PC can cast a spell or attack during a chase, so why not also be able to invoke their Cunning Action or Ki? So maybe bonus actions don't actually "drop off" here? Maybe I'm missing something.
I use the Chase Rules a fair amount and I also see nothing against the rules about bonus action Dash under that system. The limiting factor for the rogue is Constitution here and burning out twice as fast. This is really only a problem though if the rogue is the pursuer rather than the quarry since, unless there is no chance of hiding, the rogue has often successfully escaped at the end of the first round of the chase when the quarry gets to attempt to hide for free.
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
What is this anti-rogue week?

Threads bemoaning Dexterity to hit and damgae, TWF and now cunning action Dash.

Not a single thread bemoaning God Wizards or CoDzilla.

Welcome to 5E. I for one welcome our new Rogue and GWM fighter overlords.
 

Saelorn

Adventurer
Sprinting for 2 rounds would be combat time, not overland travel. I don't like that tactical time is treated differently than not tactical time. I feel like the Round < Minute < Hour conversions are easy enough.
It's not that time, itself, is treated differently. It's that different assumptions apply in each situation. A rogue certainly can run 90 feet in six seconds outside of combat. It's just that we're not really tracking fatigue in combat, since it's over so quickly, while we can't ignore fatigue over long distances.

The rogue who double-dashes every round of combat is probably going to stand around and catch their breath for a few minutes afterward, which we're not looking at, because it's not important. The rogue who double-dashes every round of overland travel will need to rest more frequently than one walking at regular speed, and the net effect makes no difference to their progress over the day.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
I feel like few are seeing that I'm talking about an interaction between the bonus action dashes and running rules I'm adding. It comes down to "do I want to have to build a sprinter with cunning action, or something like it, or do I want to modify that in some way first".

Is Usain Bolt a Rogue or Monk? Or not, basically.

And yes, I'm approaching this from a very simulationist angle, and 5E doesn't currently do this, but it's part of a larger effort to expand the skill system. It's not meant to be a nerf to the rogue; an expanded skill system is only going to benefit the rogue (and I'm using it to bake in some nerfs to casters, so there).
 

Advertisement

Top