5E Double Dash

WaterRabbit

Villager
Sorry, not to nitpick... but ok I'm totally nitpicking... the bolded part above is way off. There is nothing easy about it.

Here are the results of a popular 10 mile road race. Only 27 out of 946 people ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

Here are the results of a 20 mile road race known as a Boston Marathon prep race. Only 6 out of 582 participants ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

These people are avid, gifted runners who train a lot. No one is JOGGING at 10mph for hours. Certainly not adventurers carrying gear who don't train at distances (at least I haven't had any of my players ever say "my character goes out for a quick 10 mile run" during most every rest or downtime opportunity).

Point being, short bursts of speed for under a minute are far far more plausible than maintaining that speed "easily for a few hours".

EDIT: in case anyone is looking for the RAW rather than some real world analogy, the PHB says characters can travel 4 miles in 1 hour at a fast pace... (p 181)
These are modern people that sit behind desks all day and occasionally do this. The Tarahumara which train all of their lives for running can do 200 miles in 2 days, for example. The Inca moved fresh fish from the ocean to Macho Picchu in a few hours. See also Apache Spirit Runners.

I never made the claim that any ole person can jog at a 10 mph for hours, but most adventurers are much much much more active than modern humans. When I was in track, people that could not maintain a 10 mph pace for a couple of hours did not make the long distance running team.

Also, most people that show up to run marathons are not in that good of shape and don't train for them. Having run quite a few I can easily attest to this. A 10 mph pace is a 6 minute mile. Most humans cannot run a 10 minute mile. However, in the time frames we are talking about for most combats, 4x and 5x running speeds for adventures are not out of line. I don't think I have ever played a D&D combat that took 10 minutes of game time.
 

WaterRabbit

Villager
I feel like few are seeing that I'm talking about an interaction between the bonus action dashes and running rules I'm adding. It comes down to "do I want to have to build a sprinter with cunning action, or something like it, or do I want to modify that in some way first".

Is Usain Bolt a Rogue or Monk? Or not, basically.

And yes, I'm approaching this from a very simulationist angle, and 5E doesn't currently do this, but it's part of a larger effort to expand the skill system. It's not meant to be a nerf to the rogue; an expanded skill system is only going to benefit the rogue (and I'm using it to bake in some nerfs to casters, so there).
Casters have been so nerfed in this version of the game compared to previous ones, I don't see much need to further nerf them. Get rid of the twink builds based on Warlock and it all good. ;)
 

Xeviat

Explorer
Casters have been so nerfed in this version of the game compared to previous ones, I don't see much need to further nerf them. Get rid of the twink builds based on Warlock and it all good. ;)
I more mean I'm expressly building these new rules to not really give them to casters, in a way. They have their toys.
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.
But they're not.

Rogues are more manouverable in combat.

Cunning action [Dash] isnt some objective measure of a creatures overall speed; it's simply a class feature that models a Rogues greater manouverability in combat situations.

In a leg race a Rogue with 30' movement speed is no faster than a Fighter with a 30' movement speed. The winner of such a race would be simply determined by an opposed Str [Athletics] check, unless it was a marathon or endurance event in which case it would likely be a Con [Athletics] check.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
But they're not.

Rogues are more manouverable in combat.

Cunning action [Dash] isnt some objective measure of a creatures overall speed; it's simply a class feature that models a Rogues greater manouverability in combat situations.

In a leg race a Rogue with 30' movement speed is no faster than a Fighter with a 30' movement speed. The winner of such a race would be simply determined by an opposed Str [Athletics] check, unless it was a marathon or endurance event in which case it would likely be a Con [Athletics] check.
Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There the fighter loses badly.

This is my gripe, really, that the issue is a mechanical artifact others defend by pointing out cases where it doesn't exist. As for rogues are nimble, this is very well covered by being able to dash as a bonus action after doing something else. Take away double dash and they're still super nimble and mobile characters.

And, again, I'm arguing from a position of displeasurr soooo strong I've done nothing about it over four campaigns but post here.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
Two options to include instead of Dash to cunning action:

Misdirect
You can use your bonus action to choose one opponent you can see, and the next attack that opponent makes against you has disadvantage.

Free Movement:
You can use your bonus action to ignore difficult terrain until the start of your next turn.

These would still represent the added mobility a Rogue has in combat without bolstering their overall movement. The first for their defensive evasiveness and such, the second for more "parkour-like" ability to move.

Thoughts? Too useful? I sort of like them, but would have to run them by the group. Since we already have house-rules for running and sprinting that involve bonus actions, the added Dash ability of the Rogue via Cunning Action is not nearly as useful.
 

Xeviat

Explorer
Two options to include instead of Dash to cunning action:

Misdirect
You can use your bonus action to choose one opponent you can see, and the next attack that opponent makes against you has disadvantage.

Free Movement:
You can use your bonus action to ignore difficult terrain until the start of your next turn.

These would still represent the added mobility a Rogue has in combat without bolstering their overall movement. The first for their defensive evasiveness and such, the second for more "parkour-like" ability to move.

Thoughts? Too useful? I sort of like them, but would have to run them by the group. Since we already have house-rules for running and sprinting that involve bonus actions, the added Dash ability of the Rogue via Cunning Action is not nearly as useful.
I've been looking at adding some extra options to the Rogue's cunning action. Basically, things you can do with a skill check as an action, you'll be able to do with cunning action as a bonus action. This includes an Aim action I'm writing.

AIM
As an action, make a Wisdom (Perception) check against a target you can see's AC. If you succeed, you gain advantage on your next attack against it you make before the end of your next turn.

This will allow ranged rogues to gain their sneak attack more without being stealthy snipers.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
I've been looking at adding some extra options to the Rogue's cunning action. Basically, things you can do with a skill check as an action, you'll be able to do with cunning action as a bonus action. This includes an Aim action I'm writing.

AIM
As an action, make a Wisdom (Perception) check against a target you can see's AC. If you succeed, you gain advantage on your next attack against it you make before the end of your next turn.

This will allow ranged rogues to gain their sneak attack more without being stealthy snipers.
Well, they can also gain the sneak attack feature with the ranged weapons if the target has an enemy within 5 feet of it. But anyway...

TWF Rogues use their bonus actions for their additional second-weapon attack, this would give them a combat-related use for their bonus action with ranged attacks. I might take the check out of the equation just to speed up play.

While I kind of like the idea, I would be worried about things like Elven Accuracy kicking in with a Champion-Fighter-Archery-Fighting-Style build. Even more crits with better chances and now you are doubling sneak attack dice as well. Seems to edge towards broken in that instance IMO.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.
Alternate view: Rogues are designed and positioned as skirmishers* with additional movement possibilities over fighters, so should have more mobility over short periods

*Citation: Class description fluff, Cunning action's disengage and dash as bonus actions, Scout's Skirmisher, Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork, other class features in vein.

When you take that, the issue isn't Rogue's being faster than the fighter in combat - that's intentional.

Now, if there is still a problem, it's using (double) dash over long periods of time to do greater long distance running. Except that Dash is listed as an action you take in combat. So now really the issue is with the ruling that many DMs take that Dash (and therefore double dash) are usable outside of combat.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Alternate view: Rogues are designed and positioned as skirmishers* with additional movement possibilities over fighters, so should have more mobility over short periods

*Citation: Class description fluff, Cunning action's disengage and dash as bonus actions, Scout's Skirmisher, Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork, other class features in vein.

When you take that, the issue isn't Rogue's being faster than the fighter in combat - that's intentional.

Now, if there is still a problem, it's using (double) dash over long periods of time to do greater long distance running. Except that Dash is listed as an action you take in combat. So now really the issue is with the ruling that many DMs take that Dash (and therefore double dash) are usable outside of combat.
And all of your points are still true if you can't double dash.
 

Esker

Explorer
Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There the fighter loses badly.

This is my gripe, really, that the issue is a mechanical artifact others defend by pointing out cases where it doesn't exist. As for rogues are nimble, this is very well covered by being able to dash as a bonus action after doing something else. Take away double dash and they're still super nimble and mobile characters.

And, again, I'm arguing from a position of displeasurr soooo strong I've done nothing about it over four campaigns but post here.
Let's step through a hypothetical race and see what happens. The rogue has 14 CON, the fighter 16. Both have a 30' base speed.

Rounds 1-2: The rogue sprints away, getting 180'. The fighter only makes it 120'.

Round 3: Rogue uses their last free dash, and attempts a second. DC 10 CON check, which they have about a 2/3 chance of succeeding at, and a 1/3 chance of failing. The fighter still has plenty of free dashes left. So the rogue is either 90' ahead or 60' and exhausted.

Rounds 4-5: Rogue has to make a check again, whereas the fighter doesn't. On average the rogue has succeeded twice and failed once between rounds 3-5, making it to a total distance of 360' to the fighter's 300', but has taken a level of exhaustion.

Round 6: The fighter gets their last free dash, whereas the rogue has to make a CON check with disadvantage. Roughly 50% chance of maintaining their lead and a 50% chance of losing 30' and taking a second level of exhaustion, halving their speed.

Round 7: If the rogue made their check, they still have a 60' lead, but they have to make another check at disadvantage. Though now the fighter has to make a check too, with a 70% chance of success. So there's about a 2 in 12 chance the fighter will have caught up to the rogue by this point, another 3 in 12 that the lead is down to 30' with the rogue at half speed, about 2 in 12 that the rogue holds steady but is reduced to half speed, about 2 in 12 that the rogue holds steady without a speed reduction, and about 1 in 12 that the rogue actually gains.

The situation declines from here for the rogue. In the end it's very likely the fighter will catch up within the first minute of the chase.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
The situation declines from here for the rogue. In the end it's very likely the fighter will catch up within the first minute of the chase.
You have to flip this around and make the fighter the quarry for this to work most of the time.

Quarry gets a chance to hide at the end of every round as long as there is something to hide behind. Rogues are typically not too shabby at hiding which means the rogue will generally get away. This has to be taken into account in my view if an argument is to be based on the DMG chase rules. (There is also the matter of chase complications but because that affects both, we can probably discount.)
 

Esker

Explorer
You have to flip this around and make the fighter the quarry for this to work most of the time.

Quarry gets a chance to hide at the end of every round as long as there is something to hide behind. Rogues are typically not too shabby at hiding which means the rogue will generally get away. This has to be taken into account in my view if an argument is to be based on the DMG chase rules. (There is also the matter of chase complications but because that affects both, we can probably discount.)
Yeah. If there are places to hide, the rogue is probably going to get away. As they should; they're a rogue. Being slippery is like their whole thing (though if the fighter has survival proficiency, it gives disadvantage to hide checks). But if there's a chase out in the open and the rogue can't hide, the fighter's endurance is likely going to win out. This all seems right to me.
 
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Flamestrike

Explorer
Right.

Issue: a mechanical artifact leads to an odd result.

Response: use a different resolution mechanism and just try to ignore it otherwise.

Good talk?
It's only an issue if you (the DM) let it be an issue. It's no different to a hidden creature initiating combat (which triggers initiative, possibly allowing an Alert combatant to go before the surprising hidden creature.)

Your 'solution' to a problem that doesnt exist unless you (the DM) want it to, is to nerf the Rogue.

I swear this is anti-rogue week. Threads on arbitrarily nerfing finesse weapons AND cunning action this week.
 

Esker

Explorer
Right.

Issue: a mechanical artifact leads to an odd result.

Response: use a different resolution mechanism and just try to ignore it otherwise.

Good talk?
You keep saying that there's a mechanical artifact resulting from cunning action when conducting a chase, but it's not clear at all to me that there's anything wrong at all with the way chases work when using the DMG rules in conjunction with cunning action. Rogues tend to get away more easily than other classes, if and only if they can get to a hiding place within the first few rounds and beat the perception/survival checks of their pursuer. That's what half of the rogue's class features (cunning action, uncanny dodge, evasion, elusive, even slippery mind in a different sort of way) are about: getting away from trouble. Where's the artifact?
 

Esker

Explorer
It's only an issue if you (the DM) let it be an issue. It's no different to a hidden creature initiating combat (which triggers initiative, possibly allowing an Alert combatant to go before the surprising hidden creature.)

Your 'solution' to a problem that doesnt exist unless you (the DM) want it to, is to nerf the Rogue.

I swear this is anti-rogue week. Threads on arbitrarily nerfing finesse weapons AND cunning action this week.
You know what bugs me? How is it that the rogue, who is supposed to be speedy, can only swing a dagger once per six seconds, whereas a brutish fighter can swing a greatsword two, three or even four times in the same amount of time. Rogues really ought to get at least as many attacks as fighters. And while we're on the subject, how is it that rogues, who are supposed to be skill monkeys, don't get any features that allow them to become especially skilled with their weapon of choice? They should really have access to fighting styles. AND MOREOVER, if any class should be able to use bursts of adrenaline to act extra quickly for a period of time, it should be rogues. Let's give them action surge too...

Or, you know, I guess we could treat the game as a game, and classes as bundles of mechanics put in place to provide interesting tradeoffs and rough big picture balance across different choices, rather than prescriptions about what kinds of character concepts are allowed if you take levels in that class.
 

Flamestrike

Explorer
You know what bugs me? How is it that the rogue, who is supposed to be speedy, can only swing a dagger once per six seconds
[1 attack roll] is not =to [1 swing of a weapon].

A creature that makes 3 attack rolls against one target might only make one mighty swing. The inverse is also true; a creature that makes a single attack roll, might be stabbing his target multiple times.

Same deal how a 'hit' with an attack roll, doesnt necessarily mean you actually strike your target with your weapon. They could dodge or parry the blow at the last second (losing 'hit points' and tiring) or the blow could be luckily deflected (losing 'hit points' and running out of luck).

'Attack rolls' and 'hit points' are all mechanical abstractions. How they're narrated is entirely up to the group.
 

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