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5E Double Dash

Esker

Exploree
[1 attack roll] is not =to [1 swing of a weapon].

A creature that makes 3 attack rolls against one target might only make one mighty swing. The inverse is also true; a creature that makes a single attack roll, might be stabbing his target multiple times.

Same deal how a 'hit' with an attack roll, doesnt necessarily mean you actually strike your target with your weapon. They could dodge or parry the blow at the last second (losing 'hit points' and tiring) or the blow could be luckily deflected (losing 'hit points' and running out of luck).

'Attack rolls' and 'hit points' are all mechanical abstractions. How they're narrated is entirely up to the group.
Some of the heavy facetiousness inherent in my post may have been lost. But this is exactly my point: the mechanics are all abstractions. It's a game. Trying to bring in too much simulationism is counterproductive, IMO.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
You keep saying that there's a mechanical artifact resulting from cunning action when conducting a chase, but it's not clear at all to me that there's anything wrong at all with the way chases work when using the DMG rules in conjunction with cunning action. Rogues tend to get away more easily than other classes, if and only if they can get to a hiding place within the first few rounds and beat the perception/survival checks of their pursuer. That's what half of the rogue's class features (cunning action, uncanny dodge, evasion, elusive, even slippery mind in a different sort of way) are about: getting away from trouble. Where's the artifact?
Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the chase rules work? I apologize if I've mistaken given you that impression.
 

Saelorn

Adventurer
The interesting thing, at least from my perspective, is that rogues have a long history of out-running fighters. If you use the 3E numbers, it even comes out to the same 50% boost. The only difference is that now it's coming from a class feature, where it previously came from inherent armor speed limitations.

It's kind of like how a fighter with a greatsword does so much more damage than a rogue with a rapier. It's traditionally been the case, but it had previously been a matter of Strength adding to damage while Dexterity did not, and now it's mostly because of a feat. The net effect is the same, but it uses different mechanics to get there.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
The interesting thing, at least from my perspective, is that rogues have a long history of out-running fighters. If you use the 3E numbers, it even comes out to the same 50% boost. The only difference is that now it's coming from a class feature, where it previously came from inherent armor speed limitations.

It's kind of like how a fighter with a greatsword does so much more damage than a rogue with a rapier. It's traditionally been the case, but it had previously been a matter of Strength adding to damage while Dexterity did not, and now it's mostly because of a feat. The net effect is the same, but it uses different mechanics to get there.
To be fair, lightly armored rogues also outran heavily armored rogues by the same margin.

Honestly, at this point, I'm far more amused at the justifications than I ever was annoyed about the design.
 

Esker

Exploree
Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the chase rules work? I apologize if I've mistaken given you that impression.
I guess I'm considering a race and a chase to be the same thing (except that you're presumably not trying to hide during a race). Maybe you're not... but if you do, it all works out fine, no? Rogues win in a sprint; fighters (probably) win in the long run.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
I guess I'm considering a race and a chase to be the same thing (except that you're presumably not trying to hide during a race). Maybe you're not... but if you do, it all works out fine, no? Rogues win in a sprint; fighters (probably) win in the long run.
When did I say my problem was a race? You added the race to add the chase mechanics to show me my problem with how the rogue is 50% faster in combat time isn't a valid complaint because they aren't, maybe, that much faster in the chase mechanics. Mechanics that you then used to present a tortoise-and-hare example while openly showing the rogue rapidly outpaces the fighter right out of the gate. If it's a 1k race, sure, the tortoise likely wins because the hare is napping, but in the 100M race, the tortoise doesn't have a chance, regardless of his strength, size, physical fitness, or athletic prowess. A weakling, sick rogue with no athletic ability at all beats this fighter in a 100M dash every time, using the very chase rules you are pitching as the great leveler -- you just elide that it only works as an endurance contest, not a speed contest.

As I noted before, though, excellent marks! I'm very much enjoying the justification hoops deployed to counter a mild comment that's mildly negative about the game design. My pique is so great that I've done absolutely nothing about it in my weekly 5e game since launch! I mean, come on, the thread is a question about double dashing. If this isn't a place I can say "I find double dashing mildly annoying" without an attempted pillorying -- where can I possibly have a mild annoyance at 5e design?
 

Esker

Exploree
Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the chase rules work? I apologize if I've mistaken given you that impression.
I will say in the interest of full disclosure that I had conflated some of your posts with some of Xeviat's in my head. But that said:

And the bit where it drops out if you go to chase or overland movement rules just underlines it's a mechanical artifact. I dislike mechanical artifacts that result in strains of suspension of disbelief. Note its note "rogue go fast" its the all the time and no one else can go fast. Except monks, where its a resource and very thematic.

...

Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There the fighter loses badly.
I was responding to that last sentence: if you run the race in combat rounds, the fighter only loses if the race is short. I still don't understand why you think it's a mechanical artifact: it seems to drop out in a pretty natural way, to me. Rogues get a burst of speed ability, which as soon as the time scale becomes more than a burst, there are rules that cause them to burn out more quickly by doing it.

Is your issue just with double dashing in combat? I've played multiple rogues and seen multiple rogues play in very grid-oriented games, and I don't think I've ever used a double dash in combat more than once in a row (can you do something "once in a row"?); and doing it once seems very much to fall under the "quick burst" category. I guess there's the potential to do it turn after turn, but why on earth would you want to do that unless the combat has become a chase? Occasionally though it is useful to be able to do it in the first round to get within range for an attack or something, and in that case you get to feel like you're using one of your cool rogue abilities that other people can't do. Why take that away?
 
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Esker

Exploree
A weakling, sick rogue with no athletic ability at all beats this fighter in a 100M dash every time, using the very chase rules you are pitching as the great leveler -- you just elide that it only works as an endurance contest, not a speed contest.
I mean, yes. The chase rules are about endurance; I don't think I was eliding that, just pointing out that it's not the case that the rogue is faster, period, but that there's a transition from short time scale to longer time scale during which CON score eventually dominates (and it's not like it's that long a time scale either; the fighter is very likely to catch up within the first minute, which is like, what, a tenth of a mile? A couple of city blocks worth of distance?)

Some things are covered under ability scores and skills, other things are covered under class features, and others under feats. Sprinting ability is granted by cunning action, various Monk things, and the Mobile feat (and various spells); distance running is granted by CON. Could the rules have been set up differently so that isn't the case? Sure. But as it is, the rogue is in part balanced around being able to use cunning action at will. So if you want to restrict that without creating some other compensatory benefit, you're slightly nerfing the class. And it's not like it started out as a class that many people think is an overpowered class anyway.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
I will say in the interest of full disclosure that I had conflated some of your posts with some of Xeviat's in my head. But that said:



I was responding to that last sentence: if you run the race in combat rounds, the fighter only loses if the race is short. I still don't understand why you think it's a mechanical artifact: it seems to drop out in a pretty natural way, to me. Rogues get a burst of speed ability, which as soon as the time scale becomes more than a burst, there are rules that cause them to burn out more quickly by doing it.

Is your issue just with double dashing in combat? I've played multiple rogues and seen multiple rogues play in very grid-oriented games, and I don't think I've ever used a double dash in combat more than once in a row (can you do something "once in a row"?); and doing it once seems very much to fall under the "quick burst" category. I guess there's the potential to do it turn after turn, but why on earth would you want to do that unless the combat has become a chase? Occasionally though it is useful to be able to do it in the first round to get within range for an attack or something, and in that case you get to feel like you're using one of your cool rogue abilities that other people can't do. Why take that away?
It's a mechanical artifact because "Expert Sprinter" isn't a rogue fluff bit -- it's not mentioned anywhere. Hence, the effect of the rogue being an expert sprinter is a mechanical artifact -- it comes from interaction of the mechanics. The rogue as the maneuverable guy is maintained fully even if you drop double-dashing -- they're still the only class that can, without resource expenditure, do something as an action and then dash, disengage, or hide.

As for why you might want to do it -- I had a fighter/rogue in Curse of Strahd. I had that one weapon thingy. I could force that one bad guy to use all of his legendary actions to avoid said weapon thingy every round because he just couldn't run far enough away without them. I effectively neutralized this guy because I ran fast -- (move, dash or disengage as needed to close, use action to ready dash to follow if moved away).
 

doctorbadwolf

Adventurer
Sorry, but when did I say anything about how the chase rules work? I apologize if I've mistaken given you that impression.
But...that is the rule set for chases.

It’s also strongly implied in the rules that exceeding your walking speed would be a function of a strength athletics check, which a strength fighter will be better at it unless the rogue is an expert, in the high case they should be better than the non expert. This only leaves normal combat movement speed dominated by rogues.

Which doesn’t seem weird at all, to me.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
But...that is the rule set for chases.
Okay... yes? I feel you're trying to say something but it's just not quite complete...

It’s also strongly implied in the rules that exceeding your walking speed would be a function of a strength athletics check, which a strength fighter will be better at it unless the rogue is an expert, in the high case they should be better than the non expert. This only leaves normal combat movement speed dominated by rogues.

Which doesn’t seem weird at all, to me.
Huh, I've completely missed that rule, and have also completely missed all the threads talking about how that works. Where is this strongly implied? Is there a thread talking about reasonable DCs to set for, say, doubling your speed? Also, where is your move speed called your walking speed, as I seem to have missed that as well?
 

doctorbadwolf

Adventurer
Okay... yes? I feel you're trying to say something but it's just not quite complete...
You referenced out of combat speed as a problem. There are rules that cover most instances of out of combat running. It's...quite relevant.

Huh, I've completely missed that rule, and have also completely missed all the threads talking about how that works. Where is this strongly implied? Is there a thread talking about reasonable DCs to set for, say, doubling your speed? Also, where is your move speed called your walking speed, as I seem to have missed that as well?
I'm not ever going to care, even a tiny little bit, about this sort of nit picking. You know what walking speed is. Pedantry is entirely useless.
 

Esker

Exploree
It's a mechanical artifact because "Expert Sprinter" isn't a rogue fluff bit -- it's not mentioned anywhere. Hence, the effect of the rogue being an expert sprinter is a mechanical artifact -- it comes from interaction of the mechanics. The rogue as the maneuverable guy is maintained fully even if you drop double-dashing -- they're still the only class that can, without resource expenditure, do something as an action and then dash, disengage, or hide.

As for why you might want to do it -- I had a fighter/rogue in Curse of Strahd. I had that one weapon thingy. I could force that one bad guy to use all of his legendary actions to avoid said weapon thingy every round because he just couldn't run far enough away without them. I effectively neutralized this guy because I ran fast -- (move, dash or disengage as needed to close, use action to ready dash to follow if moved away).
I'm pretty sure RAW you can't ready a dash -- or rather you can, I suppose, but it does nothing since you can't move when you do it (the effect of a dash action is to add your speed to your movement pool for the turn). So dash as action + dash as bonus action (outside something like Haste or in the case of multiclassing, action surge) means you can do nothing else but move that round unless something gives you a reaction (like maybe an AoO), and I guess an object interaction.

In other words, if you found in that situation that double dashing broke something, it's because you weren't playing by the rules when you did what you did.
 
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Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
You referenced out of combat speed as a problem. There are rules that cover most instances of out of combat running. It's...quite relevant.
Sigh. Already had this conversation. I didn't bring up out of combat movement, that was others. So, no.

I'm not ever going to care, even a tiny little bit, about this sort of nit picking. You know what walking speed is. Pedantry is entirely useless.
I don't, actually. Calling it a walking speed comes with a host of assumptions, like "what's your running speed?" that are entirely unwarranted and not intended by the rules of the game.

I also note that you didn't provide the reference to Athletics increasing your speed.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
I'm pretty sure RAW you can't ready a dash -- or rather you can, I suppose, but it does nothing since you can't move when you do it (the effect of a dash action is to add your speed to your movement pool for the turn). So dash as action + dash as bonus action (outside something like Haste or in the case of multiclassing, action surge) means you can do nothing else but move that round unless something gives you a reaction (like maybe an AoO), and I guess an object interaction.

In other words, if you found in that situation that double dashing broke something, it's because you weren't playing by the rules when you did what you did.
There's a thread on this that didn't resolve the situation, either, so you're telling me your ruling as if it's rules. Also, for what it's worth, Crawford says you can ready a dash -- it gives you your speed in movement.
 

Esker

Exploree
There's a thread on this that didn't resolve the situation, either, so you're telling me your ruling as if it's rules. Also, for what it's worth, Crawford says you can ready a dash -- it gives you your speed in movement.
I thought it was rules, but if Crawford says otherwise then I'm just wrong. I can't find that particular sage advice, but looking back at the rules about readied actions, they do clearly say you can take an action or move up to your speed in response to the trigger (which I guess is functionally like taking the dash action to take your movement from zero to 1x your speed on the turn when the trigger happens). So mea culpa there.

So... you can ready 1x your movement, which may or may not be considered taking the dash action in response to the trigger... but in either case saying that you can't dash twice in a turn doesn't address that case, since your turn would consist of the bonus action to dash and the regular action to take the ready action. Much like if you're Hasted, then your extra action allows you to make an attack, but not to take the ready action to make an attack. Readying is its own thing.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
I thought it was rules, but if Crawford says otherwise then I'm just wrong. I can't find that particular sage advice, but looking back at the rules about readied actions, they do clearly say you can take an action or move up to your speed in response to the trigger (which I guess is functionally like taking the dash action to take your movement from zero to 1x your speed on the turn when the trigger happens). So mea culpa there.

So... you can ready 1x your movement, which may or may not be considered taking the dash action in response to the trigger... but in either case saying that you can't dash twice in a turn doesn't address that case, since your turn would consist of the bonus action to dash and the regular action to take the ready action. Much like if you're Hasted, then your extra action allows you to make an attack, but not to take the ready action to make an attack. Readying is its own thing.
Attacking was not the goal.
 

Esker

Exploree
Attacking was not the goal.
I never suggested it was. I was simply noting that the example you gave for why dashing twice could be an advantageous thing to do repeatedly in combat, while rules legal (despite my initial mistaken impression) isn't really an example of dashing twice at all, since it involves one dash action and one ready action on your turn, followed by carrying out readied movement during your reaction. Yes you've moved a total of 3x your speed during the round, but split between two turns. So if that's the case you want to forbid, saying you can't dash twice in a turn doesn't do it.
 

Ovinomancer

Flip Nazi
I never suggested it was. I was simply noting that the example you gave for why dashing twice could be an advantageous thing to do repeatedly in combat, while rules legal (despite my initial mistaken impression) isn't really an example of dashing twice at all, since it involves one dash action and one ready action on your turn, followed by carrying out readied movement during your reaction. Yes you've moved a total of 3x your speed during the round, but split between two turns. So if that's the case you want to forbid, saying you can't dash twice in a turn doesn't do it.
I Readied a 2nd Dash on my turn. Being unable to Dash twice would have prevented this, as you cannot Ready an action you don't have available (a Champion Fighter, frex, cannot Ready a Meteor Storm just because it doesn't hapoen on his turn).
 

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