Double Weapon Defense

[Balord]

It says in the player's handbook that you can use Two Weapon Defense in conjunction with a double weapon, but the listings for Improved TW Defense and Greater TW Defense in Complete Warrior specify two weapon use and say nothing about double weapons. Does this mean you can't use these feats in conjunction with a double weapon, or is it simply implied that you treat your double weapon as if it were two weapons for these feats?

 

[Darklone]

Well, I would have loved to see TWD not allowed with Double Weapons,....

Anyhow, I think ITWD and GTWD should be the same... I mean, it should work.

 

[Trainz]

A little observation about Two Weapon Defense.

In the same book (CW) that has the ITWD and GTWD feats is a little feat called Improved Buckler Defense.

For 3 feats (TWD, ITWD, and GTWD) you get a +3 to AC (+6 fighting defensively), but with one feat (IBD), you can strap on a +5 buckler (25K) and get +6 AC all the time. Note that the two don't stack, as they're both shield bonuses.

Is it just me or you're way better off spending the 25K and invest the two extra feat slots in something else ?

 

[Scion]

animated wins

 

[Liquidsabre]

Depends Trainz. If you're a fighter and have plenty of feats to burn, no problem. If you're a ranger and don't have so many feats, yea it may be better to take IBD instead and buy bucklers. Except for the higher bonuses due to fighting defensively which a light-armored fighter would be more likely to take advantage of than a fighter would. Not to mention the synergy with ranks in tumble which also grants a bonus to AC with fighting defensively.

A rogue that goes TWF also has no shield proficiency to get IBD as well, something I ran into during one assassin build, ack.

 

[Trainz]

Depends Trainz. If you're a fighter and have plenty of feats to burn, no problem. If you're a ranger and don't have so many feats, yea it may be better to take IBD instead and buy bucklers.

Well, +6 to AC ALL THE TIME is better than any way you look at the TWD feat chain. No matter the class. And you save two feat slots.

Even if the fighter has feats coming out of his ears, he's better off having +6 AC normally, as well as when fighting defensively, than +3 AC normally and another +3 (total +6) when fighting defensively.

Unless the DM allows the Combat Expertise feat to classify as "fighting defensively"... is it in the rules ?

In that case, by taking the TWD tree, and ALWAYS CE for 1, this means you'll always have -1 to hit, but +7 to AC. Which ends up basically spending two feats to save 25K gp.

 

[Darklone]

You have a -2 to hit since the buckler on your arm always results in a -1 to hit... the disadvantage of that feat. Even more to hit penalties hurt TWF fighting styles a lot.

But yes, paying two more feats for the TWD tree is horribly expensive and has been houseruled quite often.

 

[Trainz]

You have a -2 to hit since the buckler on your arm always results in a -1 to hit... the disadvantage of that feat. Even more to hit penalties hurt TWF fighting styles a lot.

I know...

But yes, paying two more feats for the TWD tree is horribly expensive and has been houseruled quite often.

I'm telling you. 'tis bad.

But what about the rules, is Combat Expertise considered "fighting defensively", and thus can a dude with it and GTWD use it at -1 to hits for a net +7 on AC ?

That's about the only instance the whole TWD investment keeps "some" appeal.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I know...

But what about the rules, is Combat Expertise considered "fighting defensively", and thus can a dude with it and GTWD use it at -1 to hits for a net +7 on AC ?

Nope. Fighting Defensively is a particular mode your character can be in whenever he takes an Attack or Full Attack action, which gives him a -4 penalty on to hit and a +2 Dodge bonus to AC until his next turn.

Combat Expertise is a feat your character can use whenever he takes an Attack or Full Attack action, which gives him a +1 Dodge bonus to AC for each -1 penalty he accepts on his to hit roll (maximum of BAB or 5) until his next turn.

You can Fight Defensively *and* use Combat Expertise at the same time, so they are not one and the same.

 

[pbd]

Well, +6 to AC ALL THE TIME is better than any way you look at the TWD feat chain. No matter the class. And you save two feat slots.

Even if the fighter has feats coming out of his ears, he's better off having +6 AC normally, as well as when fighting defensively, than +3 AC normally and another +3 (total +6) when fighting defensively.

Unless the DM allows the Combat Expertise feat to classify as "fighting defensively"... is it in the rules ?

In that case, by taking the TWD tree, and ALWAYS CE for 1, this means you'll always have -1 to hit, but +7 to AC. Which ends up basically spending two feats to save 25K gp.

Trainz,

A lot of DMs don't hand the gold out like candy, so a 25,000 gp buckler isn't an issue. Plus if you got that much scratch, buy a +3 amulet of natural armor, +3 armour, and +3 ring of protection and get +9 AC for 27,000 gp. Sounds funky to me...