Down to At-Wills

[RefinedBean]

1. If your group is not finding every round of combat interesting and/or fun, despite every character using powers named CLEAVE or MAGIC MISSLE or EYEBITE, let's not automatically assume it's the fault of the system, maybe?

2. To repeat what others have been saying, we don't have the full rules yet, and we should reserve judgement until then. One young black dragon does not an RPG make.

 

[Aristotle]

4e characters cannot do this.

True. First level 4e characters cannot do this.

 

[AllisterH]

I think it's more "lets add some fundamentals to these slam dunks" or "lets add some base-hitters to our home run kings."

To an extent, I can agree with this. But I think it's kind of shooting at the wrong star.

The reason at-will get stale has less to do with how wahoo everything else is and more to do with how many options a given first-level character has in combat.

In 3e, a starting spellcaster would be launching a magic missile, but they'd also have a burning hands, a grease, and whatever else when they got bored of Magic Missile (usually in the form of scrolls at this point -- 50 gp wasn't much, even for 1st level). Meanwhile, the starting fighter would be swinging his sword, but he'd also have trip and disarm and grapple and two-weapon fighting and shield bashing when he got bored of swinging his sword.

Wait, we're actually comparing the addition of magic items across editions?

By RAW, a 1st level 3E wizard couldn't AFFORD a scroll. By the time you paid for your adventuring gear, you pretty much were down to nothing I've found IME. I mean, 3d4x10 gp nets you an average of 75 gp.

Looking at the 4E wizard, even at 1st level, they get at least double the options of a 1st level wizard from any other previous editions.

Note that in both cases, the other options are usually VASTLY situational and quite a bit less helpful. No fighter is going to give up a sword to be able to shield bash better, no wizard would surrender Magic Missile for an extra Grease spell, but the options did exist, and they gave you a feeling of constantly having three or four things to do, even at first level, if you really wanted to.

In 4e, in order to make things more simple, a lot of those extraneous options that weren't really used in the first place get either cut or re-introduced in such a way as that you have to choose them INSTEAD of another power, not along with another power.

This means that you DO have less options, though each option you have is more significant.

????

My understanding was that those options were still there. What was changed was that the Improved version (a.k.a the ones that actually see use at the table) were changed to actual encounter style powers.

So you could trip as often as you like just like in 3E, but if you want the Improved version ("the one that actually succeeds more often than it fails), you have to get it as a power.

So why would a 4E fighter have less options than before?

 

[heretic888]

????

My understanding was that those options were still there. What was changed was that the Improved version (a.k.a the ones that actually see use at the table) were changed to actual encounter style powers.

So you could trip as often as you like just like in 3E, but if you want the Improved version ("the one that actually succeeds more often than it fails), you have to get it as a power.

Hi AllisterH,

Based on what we've been told, trip appears to be relegated to class powers in 4E.

However, it should be pointed out that with the 4E combat system (ability attack vs X defense), it is ridiculously simple and straightforward to do something like trip as an off-the-cuff combat option. Basically, Dexterity attack vs Ref; standard action; if hit, deal no damage and target is knocked prone.

Seriously, that took me all of 5 seconds to come up with. You could make disarms work pretty much the same way, too.

So why would a 4E fighter have less options than before?

Honestly, most of the basic combat options from 3E --- charging, bull rushing, grappling, etc --- appear to be in 4E. Only disarming and tripping have been changed. But, as I said before, they are easy enough to implement with virtually no thought at all.

Laterz.