Draconomicon: surprises ahead! (scoop + speculation)

Mouseferatu said:
I have certainly done so in the past. Saying anything more at this time would be inappropriate. :cool:
But I can wish for a Super-Team-Up consisting of Keith, James, and you for the ECS, can't I? Because I've noticed that Eberron needs more noir and dark stuff... and you do that quite well.

(Note: Not saying that Eberron doesn't contain it already or that Keith Baker or James Wyatt got it wrong, but when I look at the ECS and newer products, I see some evolution towards the more pulpy parts, despite having so much darker hooks... I mean the entire continent was settled by goblins first, and while humanoid, they're NOT human. It's can have an almost Lovecraftian vibe, if humans are just the "new kids on the block".)

Cheers, LT.
 

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Cadfan said:
Bring on the blue, lightning spitting storm dragons, who dance in the thunderclouds and hunt during the darkest of tempests. Sounds great to me.

And once you've made your fundamental theme "storm dragon" instead of "blue," you will be able to vary things a bit.

I think that this is a great idea Storm Dragon is much more favourful than Blue Dragon heres a sugested list of new names.

Red - Inferno Dragon
Blue - Storm Dragon
Green - Forest Dragon
Black - Bog Dragon
White - Frost Dragon

Cant think of cool names as easy for metallics

Btw for those that dont know Adamantine and Iron dragons will be in insted of bronze and brass. Read it on the WoTC website. A good idea imo because copper, bronze and brass are too similar in color.

Also my Guess for the 3 new chromatics, Grey, Orange, Purple (Indigo or Violet if you prefer)
ive always felt that yellow would look crap on a dragon, not sure why.
 

I really like the cover. It does a stellar job of portraying chromatic dragons as primal creatures whose very essence is elemental. These dragons may be charismatic, these dragons may be intelligent, these dragons might even be paragons of mystical ability, but above all else these dragons have a fierce untamed spirit born of their elemental heritage and divine birth right.
 

Cadfan said:
Looking at them is enough. Mountain Conflict, T'Char, and Golden Chaos Dragon both feature use of prominent striping.
And look like oversized snakes...

I can appreciate that you want more exotic looking dragons, but the Lockwood pictures in the MM are much more vivid and interesting to my mind.

Of all the places to criticize WotC art I find color use on dragons to be a bit of an odd place to start.
 

Cadfan said:
Acid is black, and makes everything around it shadowy? Lightning is blue and lives underground?

Bad: We need a dragon that is red. We'll make it breathe fire, and live in a volcano, because those are also red.
Good: I want a volcano themed dragon. He'll live in lava, breathe fire, and be fiery colors. Red will be prominent.

Both approaches may lead to the same place in some situations. But you probably won't see this:

Bad: We need a dragon that is blue. He'll breathe lightning, because we gave cold to the white dragon, because lightning hasn't been used yet, and because nothing else is remotely close to blue. He'll live in a desert even though deserts aren't really famous for their thunderstorms, and he'll burrow underground, because we haven't used those yet.

You might see this though:

Good: We need a storm dragon. He'll breathe lightning and love stormy weather and rain. He'll be mostly blue, with the following other details. Etc, etc, etc.

Good: We need a desert dragon. We'll make him brown and patterned like a snake. We'll give him a habit of lurking with his body mostly covered in sand, then leaping out to devour people. That way his pattern and his habits work together- its camouflage!

Now your point is more than clear, and I think I completely agree.
I also think that, at least partially, 4e will get closer to this philosophy. Me too I, for example, always felt that the Blue was just wrong.
I can speak since 3rd edition only, I had 1st edition Basic, but I don't remember any difference between chromatic dragons other than color and breath weapon, I mean, I think I can recall they looked pretty similar.
However about the Blue, I'd always imagined it as a SLIM dragon, with slick scales and an air-dominance role. Seeing it as a burrower desert dweller with the most bulky head and body always was a little strange to me.
The Black, I se no problem with it. Always pictured it as the bog dweller and both darkness and acid are well connected with bogs.

However yes, I'd split the Blue dragon as they split the elves.

Take the desert-ventriloquism-mirage part and make a new brown dragon with a very strong cobra-resemblance and a really evil lurker nature. A dragon who relies on illusions to lure preys in his lair and then kill them with a dreadful breath weapon, maybe inflicting psychic damage by the means of a terrible narcotic venom or sound.​

Then take the lightning-blue-badass part and make a dragon that inhabits the highest peaks or maybe simply passes most of his time in the high sky, bringng thunderstorms, spitting lightnings and maybe sometimes allowing epic heroes to ride him.​

However...
Mouseferatu said:
As far as "more breadth, less depth," perhaps you should wait and see what's in the book before deciding if it's too deep, too shallow, too broad, or too narrow. :) There's a lot more variety to the material in the book than you might expect.
If the creator of the Shadowcaster is involved in the Draconomicon, I will definitely buy the Draconomicon! :)
 
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It's pretty much a given that I'll buy something Ari has worked on. His imagination works along the same line mine does, so I enjoy his stuff. And I remember way back in the day seeing Ari posting around and getting his first few writing gigs. *sniff* Now he's all grown up and writing left and right for the new 4th Edition of D&D. I'm so proud of him!

On a less silly side . . .

The new Draconomicon actually looks pretty cool. I'm a little disappointed that they're holding back metallics for the MM2 (or later) but seeing as any dragon can be of any alignment it's not as important in 4th edition to have them all frontloaded to us as it was in previous editions.
 

I like the cover and I have nothing against Ari.


But I agree 100% with
Spatula said:
Well, I'm sure it can be both useful to those that are happy buying multiple dragon books (with more detail per dragon), and a waste to those that would prefer one book with less depth and more breadth. As a freelancer you presumably had no say in how the books are structured, so I don't see why a criticism of the business decision should be taken as an insult to the work you & the others have done.
288 pages for 8 dragons that is a lot of page count for each dragon.


I also agree with
Kaodi said:
Metallics are not in the first MM? That is news to me. Man, what is the world coming to when there are no metallic dragons in the MM of D&D...
Yes another part of the game missing for later on. It is essential to keep some interesting crunch for later on, why? Again I see a pattern here. Does Wizard of the Coast fear not having enough material for the years to come? I think they are under confident or too conservative. 4E will be successful, it is written in the sky (and no, I don't need a crystal ball). There are tons of material to invent that could be a potential seller of unexplored avenues and possibilities. That's why, I'm surprised with the bean counting on material released for the first year. Or maybe I'm completely off and their strategy is the only way to go. I always thought winners dare to take some risk.


But... I'm willing to believe what Ari said
Mouseferatu said:
As far as "more breadth, less depth," perhaps you should wait and see what's in the book before deciding if it's too deep, too shallow, too broad, or too narrow. There's a lot more variety to the material in the book than you might expect.
and take a good look at the book when it comes out. I hope I will be surprised.
 

Guys, there's no conspiracy here. You want to know why the metallics aren't in MM1?

Page count. Pure and simple.

We know that the 4E MM presents ready-to-play versions of each dragon, at multiple age levels. That means we can expect roughly 2 to 4 pages per dragon.

That means we're talking about 10 to 20 pages for the metallics alone. So what 10-20 pages get cut? What other monsters get put on the back burner?

How many dragons does the game need in its first year? How many solo monsters?

(BTW, this isn't just me spitballing. James Wyatt* as much as said, in one of his posts, that the metallics were cut because they just couldn't justify devoting that much page count to dragons in the first MM.)

*(I think it was James. I suppose it could've been someone else.)

Yeah, maybe once the first MM is out, you can find 20 pages of material you're not going to use. But is it the same 20 pages I'm not going to use? The same 20 pages Piratecat or Hong aren't going to use?

I understand being disappointed the metallics aren't there, if you were looking forward to them, but there's no need to dig for ulterior motives.
 

It's possible the decision about which dragons to include was made after alignment.

If you look at it from a pre-4e viewpoint the good dragons are kind of like stats for Angels... you want them for completeness, but never normally use them.
Who's fought a gold dragon? Hands?

Now an evil dragon?

I'd expect the ratio is 10 to 1. I've never fought a metallic. I've never heard of anyone fighting one in a game. I don't think I've ever had one in my games, period....
Are there any metallics in any adventures (that show up as foes anyway...)
(I'm sure I'll get five posts recounting battles-with-metallics now but..)

So when they were planning out the MM it was probably cut for as a vanity project. Nice to have, but not actually useful for most people.

The dragons-are-no-longer-aligned change removes that as reason, but they probably couldn't get the 20 pages back. If you dropped Chromatics people would have a lot of trouble converting existing adventures.
But nobody's going to be saying I can't convert my favorite adventure now!
(Which they would if you cut any of the chromatics I think).
 

The three most likely additions would be yellow, brown and purple dragon.

But they are not "new"... so are we going to have grey, pink and orange dragons*? :)

*I've never heard of them, but I cannot be sure they were never made...
 

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