D&D 3E/3.5 [Dragon] #307 - 3.5 Changes: Some we know, some we don't...

[officeronin]

Well, we don't really know what is going to happen to other spells, but the article did say that they are trying to eliminate many of the "on/off" effects of spells like the current Hold spells. It's a bit early to be calling "nerf!" just yet, IMO.

Bull! It's time to say the nerf bat has been applied.

I have not seen any bones tossed to spellcasters -- only nerfs. Not one. Instead of the fighter being taken out for the full effect because he failed his will save (probably because he dumped on his Wisdom), the wizard and the cleric are taken out for their careers because their effective strategies at low levels are gone. Tell me what a low level cleric or wizard (up to 4th level) can do against a fighter. Nothing. With the non-nerfed hold line, they had one 50/50 shot (figuring in initiative and getting the spell disrupted) of stopping him. Now, they can throw a damaging spell for, say, 8 points before getting made into chutney. Until fireball comes around at level 5 for wizards, their damage dealing is significantly less than a fighter, as is their defense. Even after level 5, they can only do it a few times per day -- if for no other reason than they won't last longer due to poor hps and AC.

Since a fighter's only weakness is will save (they've got the hit points to deal with damage from reflex saves), nerfing will save checks is a huge bonus to them, and not to any class that has a decent will save -- which means that clerics and wizards, who not only have good will saves but also rely on will save spells, are double hit. Harm now goes into the pile of spells never to be used (requires a touch attack, a save, and then has a damage cap of 150 -- which means that at 15th level, the cleric will reliably do around 40 points at the cost of exposing himself to getting mauled). Haste is now strictly a fighter buff (I misread early on and thought that haste did not allow two castings -- and never threw it). I hear shield is getting nerfed, too. So, with all these nerfs, what are spellcasters "getting"? Mystic Theurge, so they can suck with twice as many spells.

It's only a matter of time before they give everyone an SR of 20+level.

OfficeRonin

 

[Shard O'Glase]

yep I forsee a lot more dead PCs.

And besides it just is weaker than a 3rd level spell should be, maybe even weaker than a 2nd should be. I hate save or dies so I agree with the goal, but the execution isn't looking to hot right now. Hopefully some amazing info will be revaeled when I pick up 3.5.

 

[Shalewind]

Well, count me in on the I think the changes to Hold Person are good. I simply cannot fathom the ignore concept. In my experience Hold Person is a near death sentence in standard play. Yes, you could focus on other active targets if you were a cohesive one mind unity. But, looking at this as a DM trying to play realistic thought patterns this is what always comes to mind:

A monster that is attacking a fighter when the fighter is held typically doesn't stop... The Monster simply keeps attacking a now weaker target and may try and gain an advantage by CdG.

Smart opponent go for the kill as well... Why? Maximum damage. Sure you could ignore that guy for X rounds and take out his fresh friends for with one blow you can potentially remove a threat all together.

I think DMs ignoring Held PCs is akin to using "kid gloves". Perhaps I'm in the minority and most DMs play this way, and I understand that the DM can kill a party at any time. But not capitalizing on a combat advantage that the foes can percieve seems kinda off to me.

Just my 2 cents on the whole issue.

 

[Shalewind]

Harm now goes into the pile of spells never to be used (requires a touch attack, a save, and then has a damage cap of 150 -- which means that at 15th level, the cleric will reliably do around 40 points at the cost of exposing himself to getting mauled).

Whoa! What?

It's 10 points of damage, not a 1d10 points of damage per level. That 15th level cleric is going to do an average (read always ) of 150 damage. Sure, the touch attack can miss... But it isn't unlikely and with a save it's still 75 points of damage. Ouch. Not as bad as it used to be, but it's not a never use in my book.

 

[IceBear]

Yes, if a dumb monster was attacking a fighter that got held I would have the dumb monster continue to attack that fighter (until it realized that the fighter wasn't hurting it anymore but was getting hit from a different direction).

However, I completely disagree with intelligent opponents doing this. Unless that opponent has reason to suspect the hold will be broken relatively quickly it doesn't make sense to attack a helpless opponent with a full round action when you've got other opponents around that can hurt you. That just seems like poor tactics to me unless you're doing for "shock and awe" and killing the fighter in front of his friends. The round spent doing this is a round of extra damage you can dish out to the people that CAN hurt you. With the old durations you could assume that the fight would be over before the hold is broken so you could deal with the fighter lately. Now, you have to CdG him right away or you're stupid for blowing an excellent chance of taking an enemy out of the fight permanently (which is pretty much what the hold person spell does now with or without the CdG)

IceBear

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Whoa! What?

It's 10 points of damage, not a 1d10 points of damage per level. That 15th level cleric is going to do an average (read always ) of 150 damage. Sure, the touch attack can miss... But it isn't unlikely and with a save it's still 75 points of damage. Ouch. Not as bad as it used to be, but it's not a never use in my book.

I think this was over nerfed. This also has the cap of not dropping a foe below 1hp. Slay living is one level lower and kills you on a failed save. Yeah the I saved damage is worse, but the I didn't save damage is better. This is about on par of slay living not one level higher. Ultimate suckage no, but over nerfed a bit yes.

 

[Murrdox]

Well, a 15th level fighter who rolls AVERAGE hit points at every level (5) and has a +2 Con bonus (being very conservative here...) will end up with 113 hit points. This means that if he saves, he's a little more than half-dead, and if he doesn't, it means he's at 1 hp.

It LOOKS like a major nerf... but Harm DID need a saving throw, and even if the target saves, he still takes major damage.

At this point though, I'm wondering what the heck makes this spell more powerful than Slay Living?

Slay Living automatically kills you if you fail the save.
If you pass the save, Slay living does a very small amount of damage.
It's a touch attack.
It's level 5.

Harm does a grand amount of damage if you fail the save.
If you pass the save, it only does a moderate amount of damage. It looks like it's balanced roughly so that a fighter-like class or a monster of the same level will be at roughly half HP if they save.
It's a touch attack.
It's level 6.

In some ways, these spells look BALANCED... Harm doesn't seem significantly more powerful than Slay Living anymore to warrent it to be a whole spell level above.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

In our campaigns Hold Person has never been used as save or die. The real use for it in our party is to capture opponents. We find it much more useful to capture rather than kill. As we go up in levels it is becoming increasingly less usefull working mostly on the lesser flunkys. With the new rules this tactic would no longer be an option, instead we would need to CdG as soon a possible since we can't ignore the held person until combat ends.

I also agree with the comment that this benefits fighters but not casters. With Will being thier weakness in saves this to some extent neutralizes this weakness. Casters with thier weak Fortitude saves are still just as vulnerable since there are no second chances to to damage from Fort saves.

 

[IceBear]

Didn't notice and too lazy to look, but is Harm still 6th level? Maybe they bumped Slay Living up to 6th if it is?

WRT Hold, this is another change that I didn't know needed to be fixed (like DR). Right now I'm concerned that this change is a bad one. As someone else said, I like the idea in principle, but I don't know if it was executed right.

IceBear

 

[Murrdox]

Good point... I probably shouldn't go into any of this now, since it's been stated that some spell levels may be switched around.

With these listed changes to Harm, I wouldn't be surprised if it moved down to 5, and Slay Living went up to 6, to be up there with Disintigrate, which I think is pretty similar in terms of power level (aside from Disintigrate's non-combat deep-core drilling application, which makes it SLIGHTLY more useful )