Dragon 365 - Artificer

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying they can spam Dailies each encounter if they spend a day resting between each? Given the absence of Rope Trick or easy Teleport, the feasibility of stopping for 18 hours after each fight is much less than it was for 3.5, and the limited role of Daily powers vis-a-vis 3.5 spells makes it that much less enticing.

I'm not saying that it's easier, simply that it can still happen, and that the big difference is that now all classes can do it.

What I'm taking away from this is that you don't believe there's any problem in PCs prebuffing their capacity, and therefore the entire Powers framework is irrelevant and should be scrapped in favor of mechanics that allow an Artificer to spend time out of combat to improve their capability in combat. The only question is how much they should be able to prebuff themselves. Is this a correct reading?

Yes and no. I'm saying that there's no power difference between an Artificer who uses his downtime to make the gadgets and an Artificer who uses the downtime to replenish all their powers, except that one Artificer has more choices as to what gadgets to make and how many then the other. The Artificer could technically, I grant you, just burst down ALL of his gadgets and awesome abilities all in one combat, but they he couldn't do the same in any combat afterwards until resting. The thing is, he can already do that under the Powers system - there's nothing stopping him from slamming down all his Dailies in one fight.

That's why I hate the Powers system, or at least one of the reasons. It's still Vancian casting, only now EVERYONE has it, and they've removed some options to make sure you don't "make the wrong decisions." Now mages can't use all their fireballs or whatnot in one combat and be stiffled on the next, because that would be a bad decision on their behalf. But I don't like how they aren't given that choice. That's my gripe with Artificer. The Powers system really stifles the gadgettering. Instead of the James Bond/Macguyver "Don't worry, I've totally got a tool for this somewhere," it's more "Well, sorry guys, but I chose to learn how to throw wire instead or cubes. Can't help you there."

 

[Goobermunch]

I could imagine them with a magical mechanical arm holding their implement for them.

You mean like this?

--G

 

[Ximenes088]

I'm saying that there's no power difference between an Artificer who uses his downtime to make the gadgets and an Artificer who uses the downtime to replenish all their powers, except that one Artificer has more choices as to what gadgets to make and how many then the other. The Artificer could technically, I grant you, just burst down ALL of his gadgets and awesome abilities all in one combat, but they he couldn't do the same in any combat afterwards until resting. The thing is, he can already do that under the Powers system - there's nothing stopping him from slamming down all his Dailies in one fight.

Slamming down all his dailies consists of three attack powers. Four, if he's 20th+ level. The system was designed so that it's not possible to burst one encounter with far greater efficiency than the baseline. Either the Artificer shares this basic principle and cannot burn all his mojo at once to gain +10 effective levels, or he can do it, and the only argument is about how much more awesome he can be than any other PC if he's willing to be commensurately crippled afterwards.

D&D has tried the concept of a PC who has a magical solution to every problem, provided he's prepared his magical objects beforehand. It was the wizard and his scroll library. In 4e, Batman is dead, and I don't see any indication that WotC is going to bring him back.

That's why I hate the Powers system, or at least one of the reasons. It's still Vancian casting, only now EVERYONE has it, and they've removed some options to make sure you don't "make the wrong decisions." Now mages can't use all their fireballs or whatnot in one combat and be stiffled on the next, because that would be a bad decision on their behalf. But I don't like how they aren't given that choice. That's my gripe with Artificer. The Powers system really stifles the gadgettering. Instead of the James Bond/Macguyver "Don't worry, I've totally got a tool for this somewhere," it's more "Well, sorry guys, but I chose to learn how to throw wire instead or cubes. Can't help you there."

Precisely. And that's exactly how it's supposed to be, a lesson learned painfully through the course of past D&D history. It's wonderfully fun to have a PC who has a magical solution for every problem... for that PC's player. The rest of the party tends to be somewhat less enthusiastic about every jam being fixed by the spellcaster. The artificer has some tricks unique to him and a healthy amount of flexibility in his skills and the scope of his abilities, but he is not and ought not to be the Bat-Utility Belt for the party.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm not saying the Artificer needs the bat utility belt and the ability to solve any problem in the game. I'm saying the Artificer should use artificed items. Seriously, there's a spot between "THIS CHARACTER CAN DO ANYTHING IN THE WORLD" and "THIS CHARACTER CAN NEVER DO ANYTHING."

I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both. Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just variant spells. In the end, nothing about most of these abilities have anything to do with artifices. If the fluff didn't say "You use x item," you wouldn't be able to tell most of these abilities apart from the wizard's. Because while it's nice that the fluff says "you use/throw/whatever x item," it's JUST in the fluff - nothing in the mechanics uses it. And sure, one out of every four or so of the items involved an artifice, but they came out of nowhere - they just apparently magically appeared in your hand just for that. I can see why people found it irritating to keep track of arrows and such, easily, but this is getting pretty rediculous.


To bring back up the WoW d20's tinkerer, they had an enormous number of different tech items they could create and use, and if you wanted one that wasn't in the book, they gave you the rules to make your own. But the tinkerer wasn't godly or omnipowerful, because there were limitations put on them, such as how much they could carry - both the items AND their fuel, if they could afford it (those items got REALLY expensive, both to make, buy, or keep functional. Or all three), if they could use it in the first place with their skill levels, if they could MAKE it in the first place with their tinkerer levels...the list goes on.

The Artificer, on the other hand, is limited by...the Powers system. He can't use the cube more then once because...just because, apparently. Again, the Powers system just makes him into a variant wizard.

 

[Andor]

By now, I'm sure you've repeatedly and exhaustively heard the reasons why 4e went with the Powers system it did. That being the case, I'm sure you understand that the designers wanted to ensure that PCs entering an encounter would always be within certain degrees of capacity, and would not be able to buff/prepare themselves grossly above their baseline capacity. Allowing an artificer to spend time out of combat in order to gain significant power in combat is directly contrary to this plan.

But if you want the Artificer to be able to do that, how would you recommend avoiding the problem that the Powers system tries to solve in the first place? How would you balance it so an Artificer could not simply spend a week at home brewing grenades and then spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure?

Easy. Those items the artificer makes between encounters need to be maintained and the Artificer can only maintain so many. In other words his abilty to create different items lets him select different powers for each encounter when he needs to, not build up a stack of encounter or daily powers. His toolbox then becomes the Artificers equivilent to the Wizard's spellbook, allowing him to change his power mix as certain intervals.

 

[Ximenes088]

I'm not saying the Artificer needs the bat utility belt and the ability to solve any problem in the game. I'm saying the Artificer should use artificed items. Seriously, there's a spot between "THIS CHARACTER CAN DO ANYTHING IN THE WORLD" and "THIS CHARACTER CAN NEVER DO ANYTHING."

I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both. Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just variant spells. In the end, nothing about most of these abilities have anything to do with artifices. If the fluff didn't say "You use x item," you wouldn't be able to tell most of these abilities apart from the wizard's. Because while it's nice that the fluff says "you use/throw/whatever x item," it's JUST in the fluff - nothing in the mechanics uses it.

Yes, because thou shalt not balance crunch with fluff. At least according to a design philosophy I'm wholly in favor of. What you're essentially asking for is for artificers to have an arbitrarily large range of powers limited only by prep time and a particular number of slots. Again, that has been done. To try it again... well, the lady's position has been identified, we're just haggling over price.

What you're asking for has nothing to do with fluff, it has to do with the basic game-mechanical results of an artificer's abilities. If you let artificers develop their own gadgets, they've got access to an arbitrarily large range of gear. Therefore, what it comes down to mechanically is a character that can create an arbitrarily large range of results with adequate prep expenditure, limited to a specific number of slots at any one time. It is exactly the same thing as a 3.5 wizard, right down to the exact same slot system filled with preset or player-researched "spells". The most you can try to do at that stage is keep the "spells" down to a dull roar, and good luck with that when the character's design space consists of "magic or technology".

 

[Ximenes088]

Easy. Those items the artificer makes between encounters need to be maintained and the Artificer can only maintain so many. In other words his abilty to create different items lets him select different powers for each encounter when he needs to, not build up a stack of encounter or daily powers. His toolbox then becomes the Artificers equivilent to the Wizard's spellbook, allowing him to change his power mix as certain intervals.

Equivalent to the wizard, except better in every way. A wizard can only change his spellbook suite when he levels up, and then only to a limited extent. Is this artificer going to be able to add an arbitrarily large number of gadgets to his tech manual? What's going to stop him from purpose-building a plausibly powerful gadget that just happens to be exactly what he needs for a given combat or noncombat situation? Maybe it costs gold... well, all right- how do you balance it? Nobody else can simply buy new powers, particularly ones they can acquire without losing any of their current abilities.

Really, what's so special about artificers that they should get an entire power structure of superior versatility that no other class gets? Fluff is fluff. I'm not willing to give the artificer a pass to Batman-belt wearer simply because his fluff says that he's a great technician as well as a great arcanist. An artificer already has great versatility in the sphere expected to be used to deal with noncombat situations- skills and rituals. If he wants it to be more technomagical, he can just fluff out his skills with devices, and use his Thaumo-Resonant Lock Picking Wand when he rolls his Thievery check.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both. Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just variant spells.

The Third Edition artificer's infusions were just as much variant spells, so . . . since it was a fun class . . . I don't see the issue.

You want a gadgeteer who can do anything he knows how to do all the time. Fine. But that's not the artificer, and it ain't gonna be.

 

[stonegod]

Right now, all the powers do static effects for the most part---there is little variability built into them. I think a system that is power based but had more versatility in its effect would address some of these concerns. Of course, making it balance against the rest of the more fixed effect system would be the challenge.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yes, because thou shalt not balance crunch with fluff. At least according to a design philosophy I'm wholly in favor of. What you're essentially asking for is for artificers to have an arbitrarily large range of powers limited only by prep time and a particular number of slots. Again, that has been done. To try it again... well, the lady's position has been identified, we're just haggling over price.

What you're asking for has nothing to do with fluff, it has to do with the basic game-mechanical results of an artificer's abilities. If you let artificers develop their own gadgets, they've got access to an arbitrarily large range of gear. Therefore, what it comes down to mechanically is a character that can create an arbitrarily large range of results with adequate prep expenditure, limited to a specific number of slots at any one time. It is exactly the same thing as a 3.5 wizard, right down to the exact same slot system filled with preset or player-researched "spells". The most you can try to do at that stage is keep the "spells" down to a dull roar, and good luck with that when the character's design space consists of "magic or technology".

First and foremost, I'm using tinkerer as an example of varried abilities. I'm not saying that's how the Artificer is supposed to be. I'm saying that it makes an example on how many different ways you can limit a class without using the Powers system.

Nor am I saying that the Artificer should be able to craft anything and everything it desires.

I'm saying that, when you look at the artifice powers, they should be things the artificer actually crafts to use in combat, not that they come out of nowhere and vanish again once they've been used. I know this will just devolve into SIMULATIONIST versus GAMIST when I say this, but the Powers system puts completely arbitrary limits on the Artificer by saying "You can't learn how to shoot wire or cubes. Because those are the rules I just made up."

If the Powers system does have to be used, I liked someone's earlier idea in I believe another thread involving the wizard's spell book. Instead of MAGIC DISAPPEARING INK, the wizard gets a bonus to his versatility in that spells he scribes stays there and he doesn't have to wait a level to "respec" what spells he knows. The Artificer could be the same - During the eight hour or however long rest, he can dissemble certain objects and ressemble others. It's not a fix I really LIKE, as I'd rather just cut out the Powers system to begin with, but it's one I can work with.

The Third Edition artificer's infusions were just as much variant spells, so . . . since it was a fun class . . . I don't see the issue.

You want a gadgeteer who can do anything he knows how to do all the time. Fine. But that's not the artificer, and it ain't gonna be.

Again, I'm using the tinkerer as an example. I know how infusions worked, and I've got no problems with many of the Artificer spells in 4e, though I dislike how they use the Powers System. Hell, I love the psuedo arcane-commando archery stuff, and at the beginning of this thread I flat out stated that the Artificer so far is my favorite of all the 4e classes we've been shown. My issue is with the spells that use artifice that just seem to pop out of nowhere and fall under the arbitrary "You can't use this because that's what the rules say."