Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

[TerraDave]

Who had a problem with infinite planes: me

It always seemed like mathematical illiteracy, I mean our entire universe with its billions of years of history and trillions of stars is not infinite, and one million such universes is not infinite (nor is one trillion such universes)…but some place for some gods and their servants to hang out is? (yes, some cosmology invokes the infinite, but even that is usually broken up into the finite, like finite cycles of time).

Did this matter, no, but in the same way that other parts of the game I didn’t like didn’t matter, I ignored it. It only really annoyed me when the 666 Layers of the Abyss became the Infinite Layers of the Abyss. That is, from something cool, to something dumb and meaningless.

So I am glad that the game was changed just to cater to me. I support all such changes. I will be emailing Rich Baker with more personal requests, which I expect him to implement.

 

[Scribble]

hehe I thought that infinite layers of the abyss thing was particularly annoying too... It was pretty much ALWAYS the 666 layers in my games (when I used it.)

I never had a major issue with the great wheel cosmology... It was imaginative. I'll admit there were a number of planes I never used though. Plane of rock... Never really came up much. I also found it kind of static... Since every plane was linked to an alignment, adding new ones was kind of patchwork at best.

I like the new cosmology. I wouldn't say it's "better" but it IS a neat idea, and it's different. It's a new idea for me to use. We did the great wheel... 3 times already. Why not try something else for a bit?

 

[avin]

It only really annoyed me when the 666 Layers of the Abyss became the Infinite Layers of the Abyss. That is, from something cool, to something dumb and meaningless.

Er, who said 666 is cool? It's a "dumb and meaningless" number kids love to write like they were evil incarnate

What some think it's cool some think it's dumb and meaningless, no news here.

And this is a fantasy game, inifinte is a fantasy tool, why people keep comparing our universe to some place where people can cast fireballs?

 

[avin]

I'm talking logic and internal consistency, not physics. We are set up to think about finite numbers, the infinite makes everything wonky. Hence it makes much more sense to say a plane is "really big", rather than infinite.

Granted, but I don't really think D&D world works with our logic.

Logic, numbers, chemistry, phisics... all this work at the same time, like a clockwork on our universe... in an universe where trolls and dragons live I guess "really big" and "infinite" are made of the same clay.

Infinite to me is an endless playground to keep adding stuff.

Finite, to me, it's a word where all mystery is lost.

 

[The Little Raven]

Finite, to me, it's a word where all mystery is lost.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

We live in a finite universe. Mystery is most certainly not lacking in it.

 

[avin]

We live in a finite universe. Mystery is most certainly not lacking in it.

Do we?

Universe is expanding to where? What's there to expand that's not our universe? How far it goes? Mysteries...

But this is a discussion I prefer not to enter. My english is poor and crude, I won't be able to be clear here.

 

[The Little Raven]

Do we?

Most theories point that way.

Universe is expanding to where? What's there to expand that's not our universe? How far it goes? Mysteries...

Yes, mysteries that don't require an infinite universe or plane. Hell, our world is incredibly finite, and there's no shortage of mystery on it.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Sooo.... making fantasy locations usable by the DM as a place PCs can actually adventure is somehow not imaginative? Inventing boring, homogeneous places the PCs can't go to shows imagination? How is having a plane which is just where creatures of a particular type come from and PCs can't visit more cool than someplace those same creatures still come from, but the PCs can travel to?

That wasn't the point I was ultimately trying to make. I think the fact that the core design of D&D's fluff is heading in a direction that makes every campaign setting the same, is a bad idea. They design philosophy needs to back away from that, and allow a more balanced look at different versions instead of trying to retcon and shoe horn everything into one tidy package.

Such a place that would be virtually inaccessible to the PC's isn't necessarily cool or uncool, but it may be a concept that fits a particular setting, depending upon the settings being told. Its pretty unimaginative to automatically disclude such possibilities. Anything that limits my choices is certainly limiting my imagination.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Such a place that would be virtually inaccessible to the PC's isn't necessarily cool or uncool, but it may be a concept that fits a particular setting, depending upon the settings being told. Its pretty unimaginative to automatically disclude such possibilities. Anything that limits my choices is certainly limiting my imagination.

Changing the way these planes are set up in 4E opens up MORE choices for a DM to set adventures. Including the choice you seem to prefer of just saying "You can't go to this plane" or "You can only go to the City of Brass on this plane".

In fact, I find it funny that you're basically arguing for limits. The Inner Planes of previous editions did not present as many options for a DM or players to explore as the current setup, which is the point.

It's easier to start with a model more open to setting adventures and let the DM exclude the options he'd rather not have than start limited and have nothing to support the DM's that want to open it up with more options.

The MotP is going to have info on setting up your own cosmologies as well. So options for your own setup will still be there. No DM will be straitjacketed with the World Axis if he doesn't want to be for his own campaign. It's just that WotC's published material has a baseline the cosmology so that the PHB, DMG and MM material will work with as presented in all settings. And, as was mentioned in the interview, it's still flexible enough to allow something like Eberron's shifting planes to be utilized within it as well, so it'll have a unique cosmology built on the framework of the World Axis.

 

[doctorhook]

I am amazed at how disenfranchised some people get at the mention of increased utility in their games.

Everything, every location that was possible in previous editions' cosmology is still perfectly workable under the World-Axis/Pokeball-cosmology. You need a Bytopia? Hey look, there it is, floating in the Astral Sea! You need to link your material plan super-volcano to a planar realm of fire incarnate? Here's a handy continent-sized region of concentrated flame within the Elemental Chaos.

Everything that used to work still does, and now it's a heck of a lot simpler explain a bunch of things; it's win-win! Where's the problem?