Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

[The Little Raven]

The fallacy, my fellow gamer, is that any book told you that "you can't go here in any form or fashion or you will die." That's simple truth, not something subjective.

I never said any form or fashion. When a plane is described as an endless expanse of fire in which I cannot survive without constant protective magics, that is a plane that is worthless to me. When you multiply that out to 6 or more planes, that's big chunks of worthless material to me.

I really find it hard to believe that you would want your players to explore the ENTIRE plane of fire. I get the sneaking feeling that you just want to argue in that regard.

No, I don't want them to explore the entire plane of fire, because I don't want a "Plane of Fire." I want planes that I want my players to explore all parts of.

And just so I'm clear, you're saying that an infinite plane, that gives you the areas you can use in your game, and areas I can use and not use in my game, is useless to you?

When it is presented as "Plane of Endless Burning Stuff" or "Plane of Infinite Rock," and maybe 30% of the material is useful, and only with modifications on my part, that book is useless to me.

Once again, I get the feeling you just want to argue.

Assigning motivations to other posters is rude. And against the forum rules.

 

[The Little Raven]

The planes are infinite, so how can you guys say it's "small areas"?

Small areas of the planes, such as the City of Brass. If I'm getting 5 pages on the Plane of Fire, and only a few paragraphs is useful to me, then I am not getting my money's worth from that material. Extend that out over several planes (elemental, energy) and that's a large chunk of content that I have no desire to own, since I won't use it.

This areas can be the size you want to be.

...by changing things, which means I'm doing my own work anyhow. The point of being able to pick up the book and use things from it without having to change a large amount of material is convenience, since I don't have time to dwell on cosmologies and universe building with my schedule.

 

[avin]

When it is presented as "Plane of Endless Burning Stuff" or "Plane of Infinite Rock," and maybe 30% of the material is useful, and only with modifications on my part, that book is useless to me.

As much as a "everywhere is a dungeon" book is useless to me...

There's a lot of dungeons and adventures detailed coming from DDI Dragon, what I need is more fluff, inspiration, forbidden places.

 

[The Little Raven]

As much as a "everywhere is a dungeon" book is useless to me...

Which is why I've never tried to claim my experience is universal.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, I don't want them to explore the entire plane of fire, because I don't want a "Plane of Fire." I want planes that I want my players to explore all parts of.

Do your campaign worlds have places that your PC's can never/should never/will never go?

The question being posed seems to be: what's wrong with planes that the PC's can never/should never/will never go to?

When it is presented as "Plane of Endless Burning Stuff" or "Plane of Infinite Rock," and maybe 30% of the material is useful, and only with modifications on my part, that book is useless to me.

That's not necessarily true, though. It doesn't have to be. Limiting inhospitable planes to a few sentences that basically say: "If you go here, you die, but there are creatures immune to that death that live here, and they throw parties, and you're not invited, but you could crash it with this ritual" is pretty simple.

I like having the planes be some place I can adventure in all over the place, and I still don't know what having "forbidden places" really gains you, but I can respect it as a different opinion.

 

[avin]

Small areas of the planes, such as the City of Brass. If I'm getting 5 pages on the Plane of Fire, and only a few paragraphs is useful to me, then I am not getting my money's worth from that material. Extend that out over several planes (elemental, energy) and that's a large chunk of content that I have no desire to own, since I won't use it.

Do you already have the new Manual of Planes or are just assuming there will be more adventure ground described on it?

...by changing things, which means I'm doing my own work anyhow. The point of being able to pick up the book and use things from it without having to change a large amount of material is convenience, since I don't have time to dwell on cosmologies and universe building with my schedule.

What would you have to change? Were the "small" 1E areas smaller than what's coming on 4E? How do you know if that "small" areas on 1E are smaller than the "large" areas 4E motp brings?

I could understand your idea of "100% places my players can explore", but I fail seeing logic on this "size" argument.

 

[avin]

Which is why I've never tried to claim my experience is universal.

And I never said you did.

 

[The Little Raven]

Do your campaign worlds have places that your PC's can never/should never/will never go?

To some limited extent, some do, because sometimes I create hooks to go places which don't get picked up. Otherwise, no, I do not create places that my players will not see. As I said, I'm into campaign-building, not universe-building.

The question being posed seems to be: what's wrong with planes that the PC's can never/should never/will never go to?

And I've answered that: it's useless to me in a book that I am purchasing to use the material in my game.

If you want planes like that, then that's cool. However, we'll disagree on what published materials should present in that regard, and a product that satisfies you may not satisfy me.

I like having the planes be some place I can adventure in all over the place, and I still don't know what having "forbidden places" really gains you, but I can respect it as a different opinion.

I can respect people wanting different things than I do. However, when it comes to what will be in a published book, I will definitely want (and push for) material that is useful to me, even if it comes at the expense of what someone else wants.

 

[Harlekin]

It's all about screentime

"The Elemental Planes were unusable"

Yes. Sure. But they used to be sources of primal energy, the place where elementals come. Should every plane be a dungeon to explore? Sorry, this is a very poor idea.

Interestingly enough, everybody arguing for elemental planes being useful cites pockets or border regions as areas the PCs may visit. Aren't those places exactly like the new elemental chaos? If so, all the new cosmology does is reduce the emphasis on the places that are not likely to see screen time, while giving DMs more tools to run adventures in places the PCs may actually visit.

I'm also somewhat confused, why "place for the PC to visit" ="dungeon". Is an attempt to call every place that may get a lot of screen time a dungeon, even if the PCs do no fighting or looting there, but instead interact with the locals and marvel at the surroundings while the players get to roleplay?

 

[Imban]

Interestingly enough, everybody arguing for elemental planes being useful cites pockets or border regions as areas the PCs may visit. Aren't those places exactly like the new elemental chaos?

You missed me pointing out the utility of the Elemental Plane of Fire as an ocean of fire that you do not want to go to, but instead want people who you do not like to go to.

So Hell, basically, only Hell in D&D's been an adventure area for a long time.

I'm also somewhat confused, why "place for the PC to visit" ="dungeon". Is an attempt to call every place that may get a lot of screen time a dungeon, even if the PCs do no fighting or looting there, but instead interact with the locals and marvel at the surroundings while the players get to roleplay?

Most of the locals in the planes are unflaggingly hostile. It's a dungeon.