Dragon 370 - Invoker Preview

[Fallen Seraph]

I imagine though generally a Invoker would while respecting the whole pantheon would probably only work with/gain power from a select number. So lets say...

A Invoker who is nature-oriented he would seek out the gods from across the pantheon that deal with nature (which would actually be sorta neat, for peaceful circumstances one god is worshipped for war another, etc).

 

[Rechan]

The default assumption that a cleric of a polytheistic religion would be entirely devoted to one god, that the churches of different gods within the same pantheon would be different organizations, and many other such things of traditional D&D are the oddities. What you describe, a person who offers prayers to the god that is most important and relevant to him at the moment, is what would be considered to be a normal polytheistic priest. It is not like the Invoker is Christian one minute and Zoroastrian the next. Instead, he is offering prayers to Odin one minute and Thor the next. Nothing really odd about that. Things like different religious tenants and such probably would never come into it.

But to use your example, the Invoker is praying to Odin one minute, and Bast the next, then Zeus the third, because D&D has "The Elven Pantheon, the Orc pantheon, the Dwarf pantheon..." In 4e, you have a shorter list of gods, but still, you're going to have 'that God from the other continent that the Orcs and savage humanoids pray to'.

And in most of your pantheons, you didn't have Mwahaha Evil deities. Zehir, Lolth, Vecna, and Asmodeus. If you consider a Pantheon a living, breathing thing, then I don't think the "Good"-ish deities would let the bad guys into their Pantheon clubhouse.

 

[TwinBahamut]

In many pantheons though, the deity roster is rather small. Norse, Egyptian, etc; you had maybe what, 8-10 gods?

In D&D, you can have a metric buttload.

Worshiping a small pantheon, I can understand. Eberron does this with the Soverign Host (a pantheon of 6 deities). But not a smorgusboard of 'any god that wants to step up'. Especially when you have the mortal enemy situation (see: Corellan and Lolth).

Real world religions have 8-10 gods? Are you kidding? A real world polytheistic religion like Norse myth, Greek myth, Shinto, or Hinduism can have hundreds or thousands of gods, and that is just counting those that are global to the religion. The number of minor local gods and such can easily push that number into ridiculous levels.

Actually, I am willing to bet that there are more canonized saints in various Christian sects than there are D&D gods (for every setting combined), and they each have their own names, crafts or towns they are patrons of, their own holidays, etc. And that is for a monotheistic religion.

 

[Rechan]

Real world religions have 8-10 gods? Are you kidding? A real world polytheistic religion like Norse myth, Greek myth

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Norse having that many Gods.

Also, the business of Gods is a muddled mess. Take Egyptians; Bast was a War god in one African region, before it got taken over or adapted by another region, and the god gets changed because they all ready have a War god or something, so you have a lot of recycling, rebranding, and the same "Idea" gets reinvented. This can lead to an inflation of the number of Gods.

Shinto, or Hinduism can have hundreds or thousands of gods, and that is just counting those that are global to the religion. The number of minor local gods and such can easily push that number into ridiculous levels.

I wouldn't count these. Shinto and "Lminor local gods" is encrouching more on what I would consider Animism/spirits, which is the Shaman's bag. When you have "The god of the local river and the god of that forest next door", that's not the traditional cleric thing, that's druid/shaman territory, at leaset in D&D terms.

Also, Hinduism is a real muddled mess. Because many of the Gods are just avatars/manifestations of the three chief gods (and, depending on who you talk to, some Hindus think that two of the three gods are just aspects of the other!).

Actually, I am willing to bet that there are more canonized saints in various Christian sects than there are D&D gods (for every setting combined), and they each have their own names, crafts or towns they are patrons of, their own holidays, etc. And that is for a monotheistic religion.

Again, I mentioned saints, angels, and a host of minor things working with an Invoker, but I do not think that fits with specific, unrelated Gods.

 

[1of3]

In many pantheons though, the deity roster is rather small. Norse, Egyptian, etc; you had maybe what, 8-10 gods?

That's just plain wrong.

 

[TwinBahamut]

But to use your example, the Invoker is praying to Odin one minute, and Bast the next, then Zeus the third, because D&D has "The Elven Pantheon, the Orc pantheon, the Dwarf pantheon..." In 4e, you have a shorter list of gods, but still, you're going to have 'that God from the other continent that the Orcs and savage humanoids pray to'.

And in most of your pantheons, you didn't have Mwahaha Evil deities. Zehir, Lolth, Vecna, and Asmodeus. If you consider a Pantheon a living, breathing thing, then I don't think the "Good"-ish deities would let the bad guys into their Pantheon clubhouse.

Well, the fact that 4E does explicitly do away with racial pantheons hurts your claim... In 4E, Moradin is just as much the patron of human blacksmiths as he is the god of the dwarves.

Besides, in real world old-school polytheistic religion, people didn't have a problem with praying to Bast one minute and Zeus the next. In his Histories, Herodotus wrote at length about the similarities between his native Greek/Roman religion and Egyptian religion, and considered the Egyptian gods to merely be the Greek gods by another name. And then there are the matters of Isis being accepted as-is into Roman worship, and the Buddha's acceptance into Hinduism as one of the reincarnations of Vishnu... Ever more extreme than that is the religious syncretism that pretty much defines East Asian religion, where you find Shinto gods in Buddhist temples and Taoism, Confusionism, Buddhism, and generic animism blend together seamlessly.

Edit: Almost forgot to address the evil thing... Well, it is a bit problematic for there to be pure evil gods (I never quite liked that in D&D, honestly), but it has some precedent with the worship of gods like Loki, Saturn, etc. It can just be as easily explained as the Invoker trying to placate or ward off the influence of the evil gods anyways. Besides, the gods of 4E do have a common enemy and some common goals, regardless of individual differences (which is more than could be said of Loki and Saturn at some points).

 

[TwinBahamut]

That's just plain wrong.

Thank you for making that point.

 

[Rechan]

plain

This is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Looking at the link, the entry offers:

• Regional pantheons during the Old Kingdom
• Later regional pantheons
• List of deities of Ancient Egypt

See? So you have different regional pantheons. So you have the Invoker praying to 1 god in one regional pantheon, and then to another god in another regional pantheon, instead of staying in the pantheon!

And more to the point of "Large list of gods in a pantheon", you have different lists for different periods of time. So yes, the number gets inflated.

 

[RandomCitizenX]

I just realized that since Divine is the power source of the god's servants, isn't it very possible that the Elemental power source will be for the servants of the primordials. It would make sense in regards to why it is getting its own power source instead of being rolled into Primal or Arcane, and it would also create an interesting roleplaying dynamic between Elemental and Divine characters.

 

[Rechan]

Well, the fact that 4E does explicitly do away with racial pantheons hurts your claim...

Which is why I said "In 4e, you have a shorter list of gods, but still, you're going to have 'that God from the other continent that the Orcs and savage humanoids pray to'."

But okay. Let's crack open the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It spells out on page 80 the 'Pantheons of the World'. Five different Pantheons: The Greater Gods, the Gods, the Exarchs, the Primordials, and the Archdevils. An Invoker could pray to any of those (even the Primordials, who the gods Battled).

Besides, in real world old-school polytheistic religion, people didn't have a problem with praying to Bast one minute and Zeus the next.

Yeah, well as a DM and a Player I have a problem with it. And my interpretation is that Gods would have a problem with it. I

To your second point, I don't consider that valid. Yes, two pantheons might have a God of the Sun, but you don't have people jumping between pantheons and using the other God's name, they're using theirs. To put it another way, the Priests of the Soverign Host would go into a region, say "Your gods are really our gods, so you worship the Host," one of those priest of the Host isn't going to use the established Host name in a prayer one minute in the middle of a fight, and the Goblin name for that same deity in the next fight; he's just going to consistently pray to Dol Dorn.