Dragon Bound (Disclaimer: 40 pages long, with subtle balance)
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IcyCool
First Post
I see that you are an Eragon fan.
I'm confused as to why you think that a character with D10 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus, two good saves, fighter weapon and armor proficiencies, fully armored arcane spellcasting (which includes healing), a built-in magical weapon, Unnamed ability score boosts, and a DRAGON as a lackey is balanced with any of the WotC base classes.
How is this balanced with a fighter, or a barbarian, or a paladin, for example?
You've done a lot of work, so I'm hesitant to recommend looking elsewhere, but you might want to pick up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting or the Draconomicon and take a look at the Dragon Rider prestige classes. But as it stands, your class is pretty much everything - except balanced.
As a footnote, do you realize that until the character's dragon is one size category larger than the rider, the character won't be able to ride it?
I'm confused as to why you think that a character with D10 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus, two good saves, fighter weapon and armor proficiencies, fully armored arcane spellcasting (which includes healing), a built-in magical weapon, Unnamed ability score boosts, and a DRAGON as a lackey is balanced with any of the WotC base classes.
How is this balanced with a fighter, or a barbarian, or a paladin, for example?
You've done a lot of work, so I'm hesitant to recommend looking elsewhere, but you might want to pick up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting or the Draconomicon and take a look at the Dragon Rider prestige classes. But as it stands, your class is pretty much everything - except balanced.
As a footnote, do you realize that until the character's dragon is one size category larger than the rider, the character won't be able to ride it?
IcyCool said:
well the armor proficiencies aren’t granted till level 10 and 20 (as with the shield)
well they have only 3 spells of each level, with a big lode of sweet spells to use, makes it hard to pick. the dragons only spells are split with the person.
healing is slow and, in the end, only really useful on yourself.
you said weapon 2 times.
there are no "Unnamed ability score boosts".
well the dragon is as good as a pallys mount (or a tiny bit better). and the class isn’t as good as the pallys. AND less armor.
With the fighter well, this class only gets 1/2 cash so the fighter will be much better equipped the Dragon Bound.
as with the barbarian, my class would probably kick its ass............ unless I was vary well equipped
AND, on top of all that, this class dose badly multiclassing.
thanks
well I am not going to blow 30 bucks on a book i will not use, but i do have Draconomicon. and that PrC is crap.... it doesn’t give a dragon, it just gives dragon riding buffs, and they are unless at that. well it sucks at healing anyone but its self. it doesn’t have the armor of a fighter till lvl 20, it has no cash, its not sneaky, its spells are vary limited (limited number of spells, and only when able to speak).
yes i do, do i need to say that? because its not hard to add.
thanks, but i really don’t think you read it all.
Ben
P.S. this class is royal SCREWED if its dragon dies.
IcyCool
First Post
borble said:
But they still get them, at no cost. The delay is certainly a "drawback" to a certain extent, but to say that they don't get the same armor proficiencies as a fighter is at best misleading, and at worst untrue.
borble said:
This is not a drawback. It's the equivalent of saying "Yeah, he gets to cast spells and a fighter doesn't, and he gets a sweet list of spells to choose from, but he only gets to cast a few of them per day!"
To tell you the truth, the spell list is one of the big balance problems with the class. I can see why you want those spells in there (after all Eragon used many of them), but you are basically giving the class all the blasty doom of the wizards, and plenty of healing goodness from the clerics.
Also, under the Spells: description, you don't note how they determine their caster level. Is it equal to their Dragon Bound level, or is it like the Paladin's caster level?
borble said:
This is not a drawback. This is a way for the character to get multiple spells off in a single round. It's like a free quicken spell.
borble said:
No, if you can cast it on other characters, that makes it useful on others. It's like a Bards cure spells. You would, in essence, be a backup healer for the group.
borble said:
Yes? Once to refer to weapon proficiences, and once to refer to the super buffing weapon. If my wording was confusing, I hope this clears it up.
borble said:
Yes, there are, shall I quote you?
borble said:
That +2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom is untyped (or at least, no type is listed). Are they supposed to be typed (Enhancement bonuses, for example)?
borble said:
Well, let's take a look at a 20th level Paladin's Mount, and say, the weakest dragon your 20th level Dragon Bound could have (an Old White Dragon, CR 15, which fits your chart if I understand it correctly):
[sblock=Paladin's Heavy Warhorse]
Size: Large
Hit Dice: 12D8+21 (114hp average)
60ft. Land movement speed
AC: 25 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +14 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 23
Spell Resistence: 25
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 6
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+21
AttacK: +16 (3 natural attacks)
Fort: +16, Ref: +10, Will: +7
2+Int mod per HD for skill points (15 skill points)
Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathic Link, Command other horses (as per the spell)
5 feats
(I put the two stat boosts in Con and Dex to improve HP, Fort save, Ref save, and AC)
[/sblock]
[sblock=Old White Dragon]
Size: Huge
Hit Dice: 24D12+120 (276hp average)
60ft. Land movement speed, 30ft. Burrow speed, 200ft. fly speed (poor maneuverability)
AC: 31 (-2 size, +23 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 31
Spell Resistence: 21
Str 29, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+41
AttacK: +31 (7 natural attacks)
Fort: +19, Ref: +14, Will: +15
Breath Weapon: 8d6 cone of cold, DC 27
6+Int mod per HD for skill points (189 skill points)
9 feats
[/sblock]
The dragon is better (far superior, in fact) in just about every way. And the dragon and rider can basically share hitpoints (with a good concentration check), so the rider has just gained 270 or so ablative hitpoints.
If I am misunderstanding your chart for the Dragon Companion, please let me know.
borble said:
True, but the other half of his wealth belongs to his dragon, and between the two, they are just as equipped as the fighter (and get twice as many actions).
borble said:
A barbarian is simply a fighter with fewer feats, and medium armor. So if your class would beat the barbarian, it would probably beat the fighter as well.
borble said:
That's because it never needs to multiclass. Healing Magic? Check. Arcane blasting Magic? Check. Utility Magic? Check. Good Base Attack Bonus? Check. So this isn't really as much of a disadvantage as you seem to think.
borble said:
I don't remember the class in the Draconomicon being all that great, but it is at least a precedent. I don't think the class in the Dragonlance setting gives you a dragon, it just requires that you have one in order to enter.
borble said:
Well, according to your Flight as One chart, you mention dragons of small size and smaller, and also mention the rider being mounted. You may have been mentioning them for completeness, but I thought I'd point it out to be sure.
borble said:
Yes, they become a fighter with no bonus feats or heavier armor proficiences, but two good saves. My guess is that any player that lost his dragon permanently (which there currently is no way to do, since it can be raised/resurrected) would likely suicide his character (unless the player is reasonably mature). It's a bit of a glass cannon-like in that respect.
As a minor spelling quibble, you've used the word "tack" where you meant to use "take", a spell check won't find that.
Last edited:
IcyCool said:
well if i where to not have them proficient in armor then a few fast feats and its there. This ability stops them from gaining it through those roots, and they really have nothing to gain by using light armor, and so are stuck. I really don’t see how this is a problem. True that saying it’s a complete drawback is false, but to say it’s a complete positive also false, I am just saying it dose hinder them some.
Some of the custom spells i added make it advantages to hord spells, that is all I meant.
will you help me edit the spell list? what do you think doesn’t belong?
will:
A Dragon Bounds caster level is equal to his Dragon Bound level.
work?
true it can be useful, but it also depletes his spells faster, and makes it easier to cast spell.
yes but like i siad it makes it faster to drain your spells and it is advantaguse to hord them.
kk, well there really are many restrictions on the weapon......
its like the stat boosts at levels 4,8,12,and 16. What are those called?
your not misunderstanding the chary it as far as I am can see, but you have to add in the fact that your are missing 1/2 your cash, AKA. Its going back to the DM you cant spend that cast to armor the Dragon. And the BW of the dragon is only every 1d8 rounds.
not it the fighter is Dragon Fighting specialized.
i see your point
my point
that’s there in case you get shrunk to a vary small size by a trap or mage
kk I am pretty sure that’s in true name, ill go fix it
thanks, I hope this becomes something positive
ben
P.S. i have like 5 edits i STILL have to add, including 1 item and 3 epic feats :X
IcyCool
First Post
As a note, I will go ahead and second the recommendation to make this class have a D8 Hit Die (especially since it can share hp with it's dragon, which has more than enough to spare), and a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus (like the cleric).
I'd think, on a first look, that these spells jump out as not belonging:
Mend (Should be replace with Mending, and perhaps add Make Whole)
True Strike
Magic Missile
Enlarge Person
Protection from Arrows
Shrink Dragon (replace with Alter Self or Reduce Person, and share it via the Share Spells ability)
Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy
Blunt Weapon, Sharpen Weapon (Your Blunt Weapon and Sharpen Weapon spells are completely subsumed by the "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal non-lethal damage with a lethal weapon" and "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon" combat options in the PHB.)
Scorching Ray
Dragon speed (Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider via the Share Spells ability should replace this)
Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Eagle’s Splendor, Fox’s Cunning, Owl’s Wisdom (There is no reason you should have all the best buff spells in the game)
Dragon Saddle (This should be part of the Dragon's equipment, not a spell. It wasn't even a spell in Eragon)
Hair (Alter Self replaces this)
Improved Magic Missile (Why do you need this?)
Fireball (Again, why the need for all the best blasting spells (plus some custom created ones))
Lightning Bolt
Dragon Armor (This should be equipment again, or at the very least, Mage Armor
Haste
Slow
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
lightless lantern (You already have spells to provide vision in the dark, like continual flame. There is no need for this spell)
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
If you have the PHB2, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade's spell list. Alternatively I'd just use the Ranger's spell list, or maybe the Bard's list up to 4th level.
Since you seem to be emulating Paladin and Ranger spellcasting (in that your class only gains up to 4th level spells, and uses the same progression chart as the Paladin and Ranger), I'd use the Paladin and Ranger rules for it, and give him Caster Level = Dragon Bound Level/2.
As a quick side note, when looking through the base classes you'll note that there are 3 types of casters:
Full progression (full caster level and 9th level spells) (Wizard, Cleric, Druid)
Partial progression (full caster level and up to 6th level spells) (Bard)
Minor progression (half caster level and up to 4th level spells) (Paladin and Ranger)
Those are further split up into two other types:
Preparation Casters (Huge amounts of spells known, but you have to prepare them) (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger)
Spontaneous Casters (Limited amount of spells known, but you don't have to prepare them) (Sorcerer, Bard)
You should follow one branch of those for your spellcasting. For example, the Dragon bound could be as follows:
Minor Progression (like Paladin) + Spontaneous Caster (Like Bard). Which would mean that your Dragon Bound would have the spells per day of a Paladin, a limited number of spells known, and be able to spontaneously cast them.
Or you could have something like this:
Minor Progression (like Paladin) + Preparation Caster (like Cleric). Which would mean that your Dragon Bound would have the spells per day of a Paladin, know all the spells on his spell list, but have to prepare them in order to cast them.
Also, breaking the Arcane/Divine barrier and allowing the casting of Arcane spells in anything heavier than light armor seriously ups the power of the caster. So his spell list should be light on both healing and blasting (like the Bard's list), and used more for utility.
And why does he have to have the ability to cast in anything heavier than light armor? He'll need to be able to bend, flex, and move up there in the sky. (Remember, mithril armor counts as one category lighter, so mithril medium armor counts as light armor).
That's the second time you've said it, and I'm not finding anything that lets you use the spell levels to power some ability. So I'll ask, why is it beneficial for this character to not use his spells?
I'm not seeing any restrictions that matter. Perhaps I'm misreading what you wrote. Could you point out what the restrictions are?
Those are untyped bonuses, so they stack with everything. It's quite a powerful ability.
Half your cash goes to the dragon, according to what you wrote. So you aren't missing it, your dragon has it (and get's to use it - barring some strange reason that you haven't mentioned). And yes, the dragon's breath weapon will likely only see use once per encounter (by the way, you should change that to 2d4 rather than 1d8, but it hardly matters).
A 20th level fighter vs. a CR 16 dragon (who has an underequipped Fighter as a helper)? My money is on the dragon, every time. Pure economy of actions.
Ah, ok, I had thought it might be there for completeness.
borble said:
I'd think, on a first look, that these spells jump out as not belonging:
Mend (Should be replace with Mending, and perhaps add Make Whole)
True Strike
Magic Missile
Enlarge Person
Protection from Arrows
Shrink Dragon (replace with Alter Self or Reduce Person, and share it via the Share Spells ability)
Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy
Blunt Weapon, Sharpen Weapon (Your Blunt Weapon and Sharpen Weapon spells are completely subsumed by the "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal non-lethal damage with a lethal weapon" and "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon" combat options in the PHB.)
Scorching Ray
Dragon speed (Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider via the Share Spells ability should replace this)
Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Eagle’s Splendor, Fox’s Cunning, Owl’s Wisdom (There is no reason you should have all the best buff spells in the game)
Dragon Saddle (This should be part of the Dragon's equipment, not a spell. It wasn't even a spell in Eragon)
Hair (Alter Self replaces this)
Improved Magic Missile (Why do you need this?)
Fireball (Again, why the need for all the best blasting spells (plus some custom created ones))
Lightning Bolt
Dragon Armor (This should be equipment again, or at the very least, Mage Armor
Haste
Slow
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
lightless lantern (You already have spells to provide vision in the dark, like continual flame. There is no need for this spell)
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
If you have the PHB2, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade's spell list. Alternatively I'd just use the Ranger's spell list, or maybe the Bard's list up to 4th level.
borble said:
Since you seem to be emulating Paladin and Ranger spellcasting (in that your class only gains up to 4th level spells, and uses the same progression chart as the Paladin and Ranger), I'd use the Paladin and Ranger rules for it, and give him Caster Level = Dragon Bound Level/2.
As a quick side note, when looking through the base classes you'll note that there are 3 types of casters:
Full progression (full caster level and 9th level spells) (Wizard, Cleric, Druid)
Partial progression (full caster level and up to 6th level spells) (Bard)
Minor progression (half caster level and up to 4th level spells) (Paladin and Ranger)
Those are further split up into two other types:
Preparation Casters (Huge amounts of spells known, but you have to prepare them) (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger)
Spontaneous Casters (Limited amount of spells known, but you don't have to prepare them) (Sorcerer, Bard)
You should follow one branch of those for your spellcasting. For example, the Dragon bound could be as follows:
Minor Progression (like Paladin) + Spontaneous Caster (Like Bard). Which would mean that your Dragon Bound would have the spells per day of a Paladin, a limited number of spells known, and be able to spontaneously cast them.
Or you could have something like this:
Minor Progression (like Paladin) + Preparation Caster (like Cleric). Which would mean that your Dragon Bound would have the spells per day of a Paladin, know all the spells on his spell list, but have to prepare them in order to cast them.
Also, breaking the Arcane/Divine barrier and allowing the casting of Arcane spells in anything heavier than light armor seriously ups the power of the caster. So his spell list should be light on both healing and blasting (like the Bard's list), and used more for utility.
And why does he have to have the ability to cast in anything heavier than light armor? He'll need to be able to bend, flex, and move up there in the sky. (Remember, mithril armor counts as one category lighter, so mithril medium armor counts as light armor).
borble said:
That's the second time you've said it, and I'm not finding anything that lets you use the spell levels to power some ability. So I'll ask, why is it beneficial for this character to not use his spells?
borble said:
I'm not seeing any restrictions that matter. Perhaps I'm misreading what you wrote. Could you point out what the restrictions are?
borble said:
Those are untyped bonuses, so they stack with everything. It's quite a powerful ability.
borble said:
Half your cash goes to the dragon, according to what you wrote. So you aren't missing it, your dragon has it (and get's to use it - barring some strange reason that you haven't mentioned). And yes, the dragon's breath weapon will likely only see use once per encounter (by the way, you should change that to 2d4 rather than 1d8, but it hardly matters).
borble said:
A 20th level fighter vs. a CR 16 dragon (who has an underequipped Fighter as a helper)? My money is on the dragon, every time. Pure economy of actions.
borble said:
Ah, ok, I had thought it might be there for completeness.
borble said:
IcyCool said:As a note, I will go ahead and second the recommendation to make this class have a D8 Hit Die (especially since it can share hp with it's dragon, which has more than enough to spare), and a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus (like the cleric).
I'd think, on a first look, that these spells jump out as not belonging:
Mend (Should be replace with Mending, and perhaps add Make Whole)
where is this feat located?
True Strike
Magic Missile
Enlarge Person
why?
Protection from Arrows
why?
Shrink Dragon (replace with Alter Self or Reduce Person, and share it via the Share Spells ability)
well you see, by the time the dragon gets to a size that this spell becomes useful, they almost have 4th lvl spells
Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy
why?
Blunt Weapon, Sharpen Weapon (Your Blunt Weapon and Sharpen Weapon spells are completely subsumed by the "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal non-lethal damage with a lethal weapon" and "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon" combat options in the PHB.)
what you don’t know can hurt you
Scorching Ray
why?
Dragon speed (Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider via the Share Spells ability should replace this)
ya but this is more specialized, and useful, your only reason is "another spell can replace it"
Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Eagle’s Splendor, Fox’s Cunning, Owl’s Wisdom (There is no reason you should have all the best buff spells in the game)
should i move them to 3rd lvl? also, in lvl 2, its with most of my custom spells, so 2nd spells will be used more
Dragon Saddle (This should be part of the Dragon's equipment, not a spell. It wasn't even a spell in Eragon)
again, to fill a niche in spells that clogs it up
Hair (Alter Self replaces this)
[/b]but is more powerful[/b]
Improved Magic Missile (Why do you need this?)
because of the 5th level spell, magic missile storm
Fireball (Again, why the need for all the best blasting spells (plus some custom created ones))
is it really that powerful at level 9?
Lightning Bolt
Dragon Armor (This should be equipment again, or at the very least, Mage Armor
Haste
Slow
[/b]why?[/b]
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
[/b]ok but why?[/b]
lightless lantern (You already have spells to provide vision in the dark, like continual flame. There is no need for this spell)
but this has sneakier implications
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
why?
If you have the PHB2, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade's spell list.
to small
Alternatively I'd just use the Ranger's spell list, or maybe the Bard's list up to 4th level.
ok ill go edit it
and yet i have 0 lvl spells, no bace class has 0-4th lvl spells in the phb. plus the various spells makes it hard to do everything. but particular spells are a must, like saddle and heal, that opens the door for confusion on which spells to cast, and when.
can you ride a horse in heavy armor? plus his spells are oral not physical or components.
i mean that there are so many spells he can chose which to cast, and so the caster will hord spells till he hits life killing situations, and likely go to bed with extra spells.
typo, i meant there aren’t any restrictions on it.
with a
lode of dead levelsill go edit the fist post to say 2d4 and dm basically gets the dragons hord.
id go with the fighter because the lvl dragon and caster are under equipped
thanks for helping straiten stuff out
, because of my resilience to give in to simple hp and bab cuts this has been a 6 month endeavor, and all the more enjoyable for it.ben
Sound of Azure
Contemplative Soul
javcs said:
Looks like Charisma. Check the Spells entry.
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