Dragon Bound (Disclaimer: 40 pages long, with subtle balance)

[borble]

ya carisma
ben

 

[borble]

Positives:
d10 hp
doesn’t need to multiclass
they still get heavy armor at lvl 20
-Spells
they know all spells on their list
need not prepare spells ahead of time
- Dragon
ages fast
spells
Mental Shield
Explosive blade
Blood oath

Negatives:
Low skills
Cant multiclass well
Limiting armor they can use
-Spells
not many spell slots
has to know the spells true name to cast
has to be able to speak to cast
they must study spells
has good passive spells that makes the dragon bound hord spells
-Dragon
not alignment centered
if the dragon go’s below 0 hp the character loses a lot of xp
the dm gets ½ their cash for the dragons hord
breath weapon is 2d4 rounds

 

[IcyCool]

You didn't respond with any support for why you included these spells, so I asked you some specific questions below. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dissing you or anything, because I'm not. There's just alot of things to address.

Mend (Should be replace with Mending, and perhaps add Make Whole)

where is this feat located?

It's not a feat. Mending is a 0-level spell in the PHB (which you should make a 1st level Dragon Bound spell, and Make Whole I believe is 2nd.

True Strike
Magic Missile
Enlarge Person

why?

To put it simply, D&D is an ensemble game, meaning that you need a party of characters to overcome the challenges. A character who can do everything and doesn't need a party isn't a D&D character, it's a protagonist in a novel.

True Strike is unecessary (particularly since the Dragon Bound gets a super sword), and is a staple spell of the wizard or sorcerer. Magic Missile is pretty much the defining spell of a wizard or sorcerer. Why be one of those classes when you can be the uberpowerful, armor-wearing, dragon riding warrior and still be able to cast potent spells? Taking the best things from all the other classes completely unbalances this class.

Enlarge Person doesn't feel like a thematic fit (Eragon never uses it either), so I listed it for removal purely on a flavor basis.

Protection from Arrows

why?

Eragon and Saphira were not immune to arrows, and that should be reflected here. (And by stripping layers of invincibility away from the class, we can eventually get to something that is balanced).

Shrink Dragon (replace with Alter Self or Reduce Person, and share it via the Share Spells ability)

well you see, by the time the dragon gets to a size that this spell becomes useful, they almost have 4th lvl spells

And? I'm not seeing your point. What is the purpose of this spell, why does the Dragon Bound have it? It's never used in the novels, is it? Since you can accomplish the same effect with Alter Self (at the same spell level), there is no need for this spell.

Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy

why?

Again, it just seems like you included these spells because the are really cool, and for no other apparent reason. Acid Arrow is another staple Wizard/Sorcerer spell, and should remain firmly planted in their camp. What possible reason could you have for including Touch of Idiocy?

Blunt Weapon, Sharpen Weapon (Your Blunt Weapon and Sharpen Weapon spells are completely subsumed by the "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal non-lethal damage with a lethal weapon" and "Take -4 to your attack roll to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon" combat options in the PHB.)

what you don’t know can hurt you

Now you know, and as they used to say in the old GI Joe cartoon, "knowing is half the battle".

Scorching Ray

why?

You've got Flaming Sphere, which is a pretty good spell for mass damage and fire setting. Scorching Ray and Acid Arrow are the premier 2nd-level Wizard/Sorcerer damage dealing spells, and you shouldn't be taking those away from them.

Dragon speed (Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider via the Share Spells ability should replace this)

ya but this is more specialized, and useful, your only reason is "another spell can replace it"

Quite simply, there is another spell that does the same thing, and your spell is far more powerful. Which means that your spell isn't balanced (it lasts for hours!). You can ditch it for the one that does the same, or try to balance yours. It is far simpler to just use the existing spell.

Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Eagle’s Splendor, Fox’s Cunning, Owl’s Wisdom (There is no reason you should have all the best buff spells in the game)

should i move them to 3rd lvl? also, in lvl 2, its with most of my custom spells, so 2nd spells will be used more

Again we see that you are trying to have your Dragon Bound do everything (you can't have him do everything and also have him balanced). Moving them to third level won't help. At most, you should keep Bull's Strength and maybe, MAYBE Cat's Grace (Both highly useful in combat, and with your ability to share hitpoints with your dragon, there is no need for Bear's Endurance). Ditch the other boosts. (Only Wizards and Sorcerers get all of the boosting spells on their lists, what makes you think your Dragon Bound should as well?)

Dragon Saddle (This should be part of the Dragon's equipment, not a spell. It wasn't even a spell in Eragon)

again, to fill a niche in spells that clogs it up

The spell is unbalanced. It is, essentially, a piece of magical gear that you don't have to pay for (and it lasts hours!). And I'll say it again I don't think it was clear the first time: "Having a bunch of super cool spells is in NO WAY a drawback. It is one of several unbalancing factors to your class." The spell should either be ditched, or re-worked. I also noticed you didn't address my point of it not being a spell in Eragon.

Hair (Alter Self replaces this)

but is more powerful

Hair is not just more powerful, it is ridiculously powerful. It lasts hours, and of course there's this gem:

Anyone searching for you will not make the connection and do not get a spot check.

That means nobody (not even most 9th level spells!) can see through your disguise. Simply because you grew your hair out. I'm not even sure how you could balance this spell. Since it's goal was to create a disguise (that was hard to see through), I just figured Alter Self (which can be used to create a disguise that is hard to see through) would be perfect.

By the way, if you make all these super cool spells of yours last hours, then there is no reason to "hoard" them. You simply cast your buffs at breakfast, and kick butt all day.

Improved Magic Missile (Why do you need this?)

because of the 5th level spell, magic missile storm

That doesn't make any sense. Why does an "epic" spell require that you have a lower level spell? (And again, why do you need all of these blasty doom spells?)

Fireball (Again, why the need for all the best blasting spells (plus some custom created ones))

is it really that powerful at level 9?

It is one of the iconic Wizard/Sorcerer spells. And until Delayed Blast Fireball, Disintegrate, and Polar Ray, it is the damage dealing spell to have. By what rights should your Dragon Bound (who is as good a fighter as the Paladin, and has a mount that is leaps and bounds better than the Paladin's mount) also have one of the best damage dealing spells in the game?

Lightning Bolt
Dragon Armor (This should be equipment again, or at the very least, Mage Armor
Haste
Slow

why?

Not only are you trying to give the Dragon Bound the best damage dealing spells in the game, you are also giving it the best buffing spells? Again, why should he get these? And like I said, there is no reason for Dragon Armor to be a spell, it should be equipment (it wasn't a spell in the books).

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser

ok but why?

It looks like you just went through all the spell lists and cherry picked all the best spells. If you had a reason for this, by all means please explain. But again, like the protection from arrows spell, there is no reason for this spell to be on the list (and, if you recall the battle between Eragon and the Shade in the movie, Eragon wasn't immune to the fireballs (a 3rd level spell)). Not only are you giving him one of the best damage dealing spells in the game, you are also giving him the means to be immune to it.

Lightless lantern (You already have spells to provide vision in the dark, like continual flame. There is no need for this spell)

but this has sneakier implications

You are wandering around with a DRAGON (who, by the way, already has darkvision, lowlight vision, and blindsense). Dragons aren't exactly sneaky. Why do you also need to be as sneaky as the Rogue? Why does the Dragon Bound have to be the best at everything?

And if you are still dead set on it, check the Spell Compendium. There is a spell there that grants you darkvision for a limited time.

Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

why?

Why do you need these terrific battlefield control spells? Why can't you leave any of the cool stuff to your other party members? Isn't having your dragon doing strafing breath weapon attacks enough?

If you have the PHB2, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade's spell list.

to small

You are probably not looking at the complete spell list (I don't remember which page it is on). If I remember correctly, the spell list in the back of the book (with the other spell lists) is the complete one, and the one in the description just mentions the NEW spells. I might have that backwards though.

and yet i have 0 lvl spells, no bace class has 0-4th lvl spells in the phb. plus the various spells makes it hard to do everything. but particular spells are a must, like saddle and heal, that opens the door for confusion on which spells to cast, and when.

You shouldn't have 0 lvl spells. If you don't stick to one of the existing models, you very quickly throw balance out the window. And see my point about "confusion on which spells to cast" above.

And if you insist on making the Dragon Bound cast spontaneously, then you need to balance that ability with a limited number of spells known.

can you ride a horse in heavy armor? plus his spells are oral not physical or components.

Yes, you can ride a horse in heavy armor, but you can't ride it well, and your mobility is seriously limited. And the armor that Eragon gets from the dwarves isn't heavy armor. It is, at worst, Chainmail or Breastplate armor (and it's probably mithril, so it counts as light).

i mean that there are so many spells he can chose which to cast, and so the caster will hord spells till he hits life killing situations, and likely go to bed with extra spells.

Then the player is a fool. I'm sorry if that sounds blunt, but with all those juicy spells to cast, the problem (and I use the term loosely) won't be not knowing which spell to cast, it will be that he can't cast enough of them. If he still has spell slots after the first two combats in a day, I'd be remarkably surprised. The only reason he'd get anywhere near his opponent is if he ran out of blasting spells. Breakfast buffs, Blasting spells for lunch, and maybe, MAYBE a quick melee dinner.

with a lode of dead levels

Please explain.

ill go edit the fist post to say 2d4 and dm basically gets the dragons hord.

If you are set on the idea that the dragon gets half the characters wealth, but for some idiotic reason doesn't use it, I'd say that the dragon eats it's half of the character's wealth (most of them tend to eat treasure anyway), and that is what fuels it's rapid increase in size and power. Then you at least have a reason for why the dragon takes up half the cash, but still fights naked and unarmed.

Also, I think that you really should create a new Dragon for the Dragon Bound, and stat them out like you'd see in the monster manual, complete with age categories. That way all Dragon Bound dragons would have the same stats, just different colors and elemental immunities/vulnerabilities. This keeps power levels consistent, and doesn't lead to everyone choosing Red or Gold dragons as their mounts (because they are the most powerful). Doing this also lets you reduce the dragon's power levels to something a little closer to the Paladin's mount.

id go with the fighter because the lvl dragon and caster are under equipped

The dragon and Dragon Bound get a minimum of 11 attacks between them (not counting the auto hitting dragon breath or all of the great blasting spells of the Dragon Bound), 8 of which are pretty much guaranteed hits. The fighter gets at least 4 attacks, 1 of which is a pretty much guaranteed hit. And that's assuming they aren't doing something smart, like engaging the fighter at range, or having the dragon grapple the fighter and pin him while they tear him apart.

If you really believe that they are equal, then you are likely to disregard any suggestion of balance on my part.

thanks for helping straiten stuff out , because of my resilience to give in to simple hp and bab cuts this has been a 6 month endeavor, and all the more enjoyable for it.
ben

I like to give advice, and I like to tinker with rules, so no problem . I also like the idea of a Dragon Rider base class, but there's no way I could honestly use yours in it's current incarnation. If you are finding my advice helpful, I'll continue. If not, let me know and I'll stop wasting my time and yours.

 

[borble]

ahh finally to the editing stage of this argument, I am glad we are finally making progress

You didn't respond with any support for why you included these spells, so I asked you some specific questions below. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dissing you or anything, because I'm not. There's just alot of things to address.

np, I am not always sure if some ones jelling at me on the internet, so i take all not quite blatant forward insults as talk, also i edited the spell list to make it combat oriented, except for the custom spells

It's not a feat. Mending is a 0-level spell in the PHB (which you should make a 1st level Dragon Bound spell, and Make Whole I believe is 2nd.

so you think i should remove this spell line and add the one from phb in at lvl 1, ill look it over and get back to you.

To put it simply, D&D is an ensemble game, meaning that you need a party of characters to overcome the challenges. A character who can do everything and doesn't need a party isn't a D&D character, it's a protagonist in a novel.

kk

True Strike is unecessary (particularly since the Dragon Bound gets a super sword), and is a staple spell of the wizard or sorcerer. Magic Missile is pretty much the defining spell of a wizard or sorcerer. Why be one of those classes when you can be the uberpowerful, armor-wearing, dragon riding warrior and still be able to cast potent spells? Taking the best things from all the other classes completely unbalances this class.

Enlarge Person doesn't feel like a thematic fit (Eragon never uses it either), so I listed it for removal purely on a flavor basis.

ok ill remove true strike, you have a good point. well i am not entirely going for eragon class, its just built on that, its not the ultimate goal, the ultimate goal it to balance it.

Eragon and Saphira were not immune to arrows, and that should be reflected here. (And by stripping layers of invincibility away from the class, we can eventually get to something that is balanced).

i think i will leave it hear, because its really more fit for this class the a wizard.

And? I'm not seeing your point. What is the purpose of this spell, why does the Dragon Bound have it? It's never used in the novels, is it? Since you can accomplish the same effect with Alter Self (at the same spell level), there is no need for this spell.

alter self it more powerful, and this is only ment to be used inside a dungeon, because the player isn’t complete in a dungeon without the dragon and ultimately vary week

Again, it just seems like you included these spells because the are really cool, and for no other apparent reason. Acid Arrow is another staple Wizard/Sorcerer spell, and should remain firmly planted in their camp. What possible reason could you have for including Touch of Idiocy?

i will remove Touch of Idiocy, but again acid arrow is vary combat oriented

Now you know, and as they used to say in the old GI Joe cartoon, "knowing is half the battle".

lol ya, but i think i will leave it in because, eragon did it.....and not all people have memorized the phb like you seem to have,......and to clog things up

You've got Flaming Sphere, which is a pretty good spell for mass damage and fire setting. Scorching Ray and Acid Arrow are the premier 2nd-level Wizard/Sorcerer damage dealing spells, and you shouldn't be taking those away from them.

ok i see your point, plus it doesn’t seem to be the way a dragon caster, would employ damage.

Quite simply, there is another spell that does the same thing, and your spell is far more powerful. Which means that your spell isn't balanced (it lasts for hours!). You can ditch it for the one that does the same, or try to balance yours. It is far simpler to just use the existing spell.

where is this other spell located?

Again we see that you are trying to have your Dragon Bound do everything (you can't have him do everything and also have him balanced). Moving them to third level won't help. At most, you should keep Bull's Strength and maybe, MAYBE Cat's Grace (Both highly useful in combat, and with your ability to share hitpoints with your dragon, there is no need for Bear's Endurance). Ditch the other boosts. (Only Wizards and Sorcerers get all of the boosting spells on their lists, what makes you think your Dragon Bound should as well?)

ok good point but i think i will leave str,dex,and cha, because those are the stats this class use………blahhhhhhhhhhlol

The spell is unbalanced. It is, essentially, a piece of magical gear that you don't have to pay for (and it lasts hours!). And I'll say it again I don't think it was clear the first time: "Having a bunch of super cool spells is in NO WAY a drawback. It is one of several unbalancing factors to your class." The spell should either be ditched, or re-worked. I also noticed you didn't address my point of it not being a spell in Eragon.

eragon is not the objective of this class, balence is. so how much cash for a dragon saddle with these or no buffs........ill make the items.

Hair is not just more powerful, it is ridiculously powerful. It lasts hours, and of course there's this gem:



That means nobody (not even most 9th level spells!) can see through your disguise. Simply because you grew your hair out. I'm not even sure how you could balance this spell. Since it's goal was to create a disguise (that was hard to see through), I just figured Alter Self (which can be used to create a disguise that is hard to see through) would be perfect.

By the way, if you make all these super cool spells of yours last hours, then there is no reason to "hoard" them. You simply cast your buffs at breakfast, and kick butt all day.

so ill make it immune to spy spells of its level?

That doesn't make any sense. Why does an "epic" spell require that you have a lower level spell? (And again, why do you need all of these blasty doom spells?)

quite simply, a spell line, if you think that a spell line is not required and just the epic spell is good then i can fix it, but they are in there to explain the epic spell.

It is one of the iconic Wizard/Sorcerer spells. And until Delayed Blast Fireball, Disintegrate, and Polar Ray, it is the damage dealing spell to have. By what rights should your Dragon Bound (who is as good a fighter as the Paladin, and has a mount that is leaps and bounds better than the Paladin's mount) also have one of the best damage dealing spells in the game?

so move it up a lvl? i am not removing it.

Not only are you trying to give the Dragon Bound the best damage dealing spells in the game, you are also giving it the best buffing spells? Again, why should he get these? And like I said, there is no reason for Dragon Armor to be a spell, it should be equipment (it wasn't a spell in the books).

i got dragon armor from complete divine, and that was a 1st lvl spells. i am not itemizing this spell, but maybe hast i can remove.

It looks like you just went through all the spell lists and cherry picked all the best spells. If you had a reason for this, by all means please explain. But again, like the protection from arrows spell, there is no reason for this spell to be on the list (and, if you recall the battle between Eragon and the Shade in the movie, Eragon wasn't immune to the fireballs (a 3rd level spell)). Not only are you giving him one of the best damage dealing spells in the game, you are also giving him the means to be immune to it.

they are battle oriented that’s why they are the best spells, because the best spells are combat oriented. but this one can go.

You are wandering around with a DRAGON (who, by the way, already has darkvision, lowlight vision, and blindsense). Dragons aren't exactly sneaky. Why do you also need to be as sneaky as the Rogue? Why does the Dragon Bound have to be the best at everything?

And if you are still dead set on it, check the Spell Compendium. There is a spell there that grants you darkvision for a limited time.

this is for say sneaking up on a sentry in a dungeon or something of the likes, i like it because its combat oriented

Why do you need these terrific battlefield control spells? Why can't you leave any of the cool stuff to your other party members? Isn't having your dragon doing strafing breath weapon attacks enough?

yes it is and this spell screams wizard anyway so i can go also.

You are probably not looking at the complete spell list (I don't remember which page it is on). If I remember correctly, the spell list in the back of the book (with the other spell lists) is the complete one, and the one in the description just mentions the NEW spells. I might have that backwards though.

but this isn’t that class and so it early doesn’t completely apply

You shouldn't have 0 lvl spells. If you don't stick to one of the existing models, you very quickly throw balance out the window. And see my point about "confusion on which spells to cast" above.

this class was originally:
up to 6th lvl spells like a bard, should i give you the web page, its really came along way since then. and so i never cut 0 lvl spells and it really doesn’t make much of a difference.

And if you insist on making the Dragon Bound cast spontaneously, then you need to balance that ability with a limited number of spells known.

i have, look at spells true name, no casting when cant speak or without wining knowledge dragon check.

Yes, you can ride a horse in heavy armor, but you can't ride it well, and your mobility is seriously limited. And the armor that Eragon gets from the dwarves isn't heavy armor. It is, at worst, Chainmail or Breastplate armor (and it's probably mithril, so it counts as light).

hello? dwarfs? do you think dwarfs use medium armor a lot, so what if it LOOKED like medium they played it as heavy mithral probably. sorry I am not so motivated to say my point this this black background. it sucks the energy and will out of me.

Then the player is a fool. I'm sorry if that sounds blunt, but with all those juicy spells to cast, the problem (and I use the term loosely) won't be not knowing which spell to cast, it will be that he can't cast enough of them. If he still has spell slots after the first two combats in a day, I'd be remarkably surprised. The only reason he'd get anywhere near his opponent is if he ran out of blasting spells. Breakfast buffs, Blasting spells for lunch, and maybe, MAYBE a quick melee dinner.

.........no comment.........i have a lot of editing to do..............

Please explain.

shal i list the dead lvls?
dead lvls on the chart=2,3,5,7,8,11,12,13,17,18
dead lvls on the chart including repeat ability’s= all except for 1,4,6,20
dead lvls on the spell chart= 1,2,3,5,8
dead lvls on the dragon chart (for a black dragon)=3,4,6,11,13,15,17

now add them all up and the lvls you gain nothing are= 3 .....well i though that number was bigger........

If you are set on the idea that the dragon gets half the characters wealth, but for some idiotic reason doesn't use it, I'd say that the dragon eats it's half of the character's wealth (most of them tend to eat treasure anyway), and that is what fuels it's rapid increase in size and power. Then you at least have a reason for why the dragon takes up half the cash, but still fights naked and unarmed.

well that sounds like it would work, ill...... go.....edit it.........eventually.......

Also, I think that you really should create a new Dragon for the Dragon Bound, and stat them out like you'd see in the monster manual, complete with age categories. That way all Dragon Bound dragons would have the same stats, just different colors and elemental immunities/vulnerabilities. This keeps power levels consistent, and doesn't lead to everyone choosing Red or Gold dragons as their mounts (because they are the most powerful). Doing this also lets you reduce the dragon's power levels to something a little closer to the Paladin's mount.

well the character really doesn’t have a choice what color dragon he gets........the dragon chooses him. Should i make a chart telling you how to get your dragon, to make it so the dm cant be spiteful and cripple the dragon, or the player cant chose a high mighty dragon (oh and my dragon feats and dragon chart make the lesser dragons less of a drag).

The dragon and Dragon Bound get a minimum of 11 attacks between them (not counting the auto hitting dragon breath or all of the great blasting spells of the Dragon Bound), 8 of which are pretty much guaranteed hits. The fighter gets at least 4 attacks, 1 of which is a pretty much guaranteed hit. And that's assuming they aren't doing something smart, like engaging the fighter at range, or having the dragon grapple the fighter and pin him while they tear him apart.

ok ok, limit spells got it.

If you really believe that they are equal, then you are likely to disregard any suggestion of balance on my part.

on the contrary i think this spat of posts is really helping my class grow (even though this post has taken me 45 minuets to type).

I like to give advice, and I like to tinker with rules, so no problem . I also like the idea of a Dragon Rider base class, but there's no way I could honestly use yours in it's current incarnation. If you are finding my advice helpful, I'll continue. If not, let me know and I'll stop wasting my time and yours.

i love your advice this is really helping me eliminate the "bugs on this video game."
thanks ill get to the changes.......eventually.....meaning ugggggggg not right now
ben
P.S. they fixed the bugs in the attachment file so I got the printers version up and running

 

[borble]

i fixed most of the edits, but please still respond to everything for i didn’t change all.
thanks
ben

 

[IcyCool]

You know, I just realized what I was doing, and realized just how much of my time I'm wasting. Good luck with your class, I hope you find a GM that agrees with your ideas on balance and lets you play it.

 

[borble]

i fixed spell langths as you sead, and i also updated armored casting.
ben

 

[borble]

fixed the edic spell feats

 

[borble]

added class crunch to attachments

 

[borble]

moved spell lvl gainings down alot and fixed coresponding spell.......
ben