Dragon Challenge help my friend B.A.D.D. !

[Rashak Mani]

You guys sure about the Magic Items for Dragons ? It would have to be crystal clear the value or number available... otherwise the Players will scream Cheat !


Anti Magic Field is from the center or from "the skin" ? (just read the spell description again... parts of the Dragon will be outside the spell... but many spells arent targetable... AMF would still stop a lot of stuff... )

 

[Darklone]

Hmm

I am not sure about the SR of that wyrm here without my books...

But I think it doesn't matter much as long as the players can beat it.

Problem with all those high level duels or arena fights: The guy that wins initiative and is spellcaster wins the fight.

Just imagine 4 guys of whom at least two will have higher ini than the dragon (Assuming player stats compared to the MM ones for the dragon... his dex kinda sucks)

I think they would start with a timestop, haste, then lay waste to the world with several nice spells... allow those Rituals&Relics two minds spell and they will have cast half of their spells before you can act.

No matter what kind of creature, I don't think anything will survive this.

Do you allow your combatants to enter combat prepared? If yes...

Is there something like Hallow or Unhallow that can be combined with other spells that only affect special creatures ?

 

[Numion]

Sorry, DR is a Supernatural ability, and thus does not work inside the Anti-Magic Field.

 

[Saladrex]

Sorry, DR is a Supernatural ability, and thus does not work inside the Anti-Magic Field.

What is written in the books is this:
"Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as
though they were invulnerable."

From that I assume "instantly heal damage" is a supernatural ability, ok, but id doesn't say so for "ignore blows altogether as
though they were invulnerable.", and I think that's the case of the dragon, because his scales ar so tough that it would be necessary a good blow to hurt him. For me this is not supernatural, but physical.

Do you guys agree, or did I assume wrong?

[]s

 

[Derren]

Re: Hmm

(...)
Problem with all those high level duels or arena fights: The guy that wins initiative and is spellcaster wins the fight.
(...)

Then what about a contingency: As soon as somebody in an radius of 1000 ft. starts casting a spell, cast time stop ?

This should make sure that the dragon casts first.

[edit: Just saw, that the spell can max 6th level. Sorry. But what about a dimension door ? Should make it a bit hard to target the dragon.
And a wall of force around the caster makes a nice barrier and with look you catch some others whit him, but it depends on the starting range.]

 

[SpikeyFreak]

If a dragon were flying along and came upon a party of 6 characters who attack it and are actaully able to hurt it, I can tell you what it's first action is going to be:

Teleport.

A dragon is a highly intelligent creature. They don't get to be great wyrms by fighting to the death. If there is any doubt as to the outcome, it is going to flee.

At least that's how I would play a int: 26 creature thats over 1200 years old.

And the great wyrm red is CR 25.

--Coward Spikey

 

[bret]

What is the starting distance in this Duel,and is any pumping allowed before the fight?


As the dragon, I would want to start at about 325 feet. This is just barely outside the fear effect of a Great Wyrm and also outside Medium range for spells.

Since it is your presence that causes the fear effect, you could move up enough to see who flees, trying to split up the group. Doesn't take an action to force them to make the save. Hopefully they didn't take a Paladin in the group.


Things the dragon should focus on: Kill the Cleric first (get rid of harm, heal, true resurrection), try to break up the party, and Wizards are good to eat.


You probably want some sort of mass elemental attack of a different energy type than Fire. The group will have put a lot of effort into protecting against your breath weapon, but may not have protected against the other elemental types A great shout could be effective, since it would break any vials the group had on them. So much for potions of True Strike, Speed, Healing, etc.

You have the advantage in movement rate, being able to fly much faster than the group. Make sure you use it. None of the other characters should be able to take out a Dragon in a one on one fight, try and get some of them to engage you that way.

 

[Victim]

Re: Re: Hmm

Then what about a contingency: As soon as somebody in an radius of 1000 ft. starts casting a spell, cast time stop ?

This should make sure that the dragon casts first.

[edit: Just saw, that the spell can max 6th level. Sorry. But what about a dimension door ? Should make it a bit hard to target the dragon.
And a wall of force around the caster makes a nice barrier and with look you catch some others whit him, but it depends on the starting range.]

Nothing prevents every character from having a contingency. With the proper spells and triggers, the players should gain at least as much of an advantage as the dragon.

Also, if the dragon sets up an early use defensive contingency, he can't have the Contingencied Heal spell, which is probably more dangerous.

As the dragon, I would want to start at about 325 feet. This is just barely outside the fear effect of a Great Wyrm and also outside Medium range for spells.

Since it is your presence that causes the fear effect, you could move up enough to see who flees, trying to split up the group. Doesn't take an action to force them to make the save. Hopefully they didn't take a Paladin in the group.

20th level characters will only be shaken by the fear aura, even if they fail the save. A paladin or some proper spells will probably negate most of the effect.

Since the potions are going to be attached to a character, so they get the character's save. In any case, by the time the dragon closes to use great shout, characters will probably have drank many of the potions - or just used Mass Haste and mass fly, etc, from scrolls to boost everyone. Even the best healing potion will be insignificant next to a dragon's damage.

On way to think of a dragon is as a 20th level fighter and 20th level mage. Just like any multiclass spellcaster, they have to get creative and use the lower level spells effectively in combat against high level opponents. For example, an 8th level fighter/12th level wizard in a 20th level group has weaker combat ability and weaker spell ability. To be most effective, he needs to use magic to boost his combat, or use the combat to win after a nasty magic trick. He won't pull his weight on either spells alone or melee alone. However, after self buffs he's about an equal melee fighter, and having innate skills lets him pull off mean tricks. For example, he can use movement spells to close with a caster, then drop an AMF and beat the crap out of him with fighting skills, then drop it, throw a Tenser's and go after a fighter. When a straight fighter will have a tough time closing with a wizard and a straight wizard, even with good boost spells, will get ripped up by a fighter, the multiclass character can have a chance in each situation, even if he's not as specialized.

 

[Rashak Mani]

How does one calculate the Dragons attacks ? A big one has +49 base attack ... does he get secondary attacks with his bite or not ? Or one bite... two claws... tail +wing

 

[Epametheus]

Does Anti-magic shell negate DR? Yes.

Does it matter? Considering that the dragon has a 40 something AC and over 700 HP, no.

If you can cut it down to just the fighters being able to hurt you, you're fine. At best, they'll do about 15-20 points a hit -- and only 2 or so attack per round from them have any chance of hitting.

Considering that they'll have a max ac around 25 or so without their magic, your dragon can just 20 point power attack them all death (don't forget to take cleave).

If it comes down to a duel, force a grapple with the poor bastard. You'll have like a +60 something on the check (base attack bonus + Str + a +16 bonus for being colossal). Come to think of it, the Snatch feat gives your dragon improved grab with its bite attack. As a side note, if ya want to grab someone but not spend all effort on grappling them, you'll take a -20 penalty. Bringing you down to a mere +45 or so. You can't bloody lose the grapple, so who cares?

You've got 10 feats or so to work with.. Fly-by (which WILL work with Harm spells, BTW; fly-by works with anything that's a partial action, making it much cooler than Spring attack), Wingover (turn around as a free action, which is VERY important for a Clumsy flier), Hover (between this and wingover, your hulking brute can fake having Good manueverability), Large & in-charge (sort of nice.. much better if your dragon is built with point-buy or something similar so that it has a positive Dex mod, in which case take Combat Reflexes to make it evil), Power Attack (a genuine must), Cleave (trust me, you'll use it), Multi-attack (maximizes guarantee of off-attacks hitting), and maybe something really bizarre.. improved unarmed strike & then Stun Fist to get Stun-bites that impose like DC 35 fort saves?

For the more magical route...
Time Stop, MIRACLE, Expeditious Retreat (flight speed of 400+ woohoo!), HEAL, Maze, Greater Dispelling, Mordy's Disjunction, Gate (get some bitchin' allies -- you can force a Solar's obediance with this puppy, and it doesn't have to be paid if everything dies in 19 rounds (or better yet, everything else AND it dies)), Horrid Wilting, Haste, Improved Invisibility (combo with Non-detection, if possible -- they'll need to pass DC 35 checks just to see the damn dragon), Sunburst (don't underestimate an area-effect blindness spell), Teleport, Iron Body (50/+3 Dr, +6 Str, -6 Dex, immune to lots of things, including crits), Prismatic Wall (grab people and throw them into it), Divine Favor (+6 Luck bonus to attack and damage; not bad for a 1st level spell...), Righteous Might (Colossal to Earth-shattering?), Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, Negative Energy Protection, Contingency (Heal), protection from elements (Cold)...

My own evaluation of the dragon's odds is that it can only lose if the player allows it to. Something that can kill the Tarrasque for breakfast shouldn't be prey for human scum.

Honestly, a great wyrm red or gold is closest anything in the system comes to completely unstoppable.