Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

[Hussar]

This can't be repeated enough.

Most D&D players I know haven't been to a gaming store since the early 90's, they never visit a D&D website and they don't know Paizo and certainly not Pathfinder.

But yet, they play D&D once a week, just like they have for 20 years.

play 4e as opposed to whatever edition they've been playing for 20 years.

Umm, I don't think he mentioned anything about which edition they play.

All he said was that most of the players he knows don't get involved in the "industry" or the edition war thing. Just that they play whatever D&D they want to play and get on with it.

I'm not seeing anything which points to any particular edition here.

 

[Jack99]

That's true.
No matter how many times you repeat it, it won't change the schism.

Cute..

Funny, you praise DDI for evidence of 10,000 subscribers (and I agree, praiseworthy), yet 50,000 unique downloads gets dismissed as something not even heard of by most gamers.

If you do not understand the difference between having a subscription to a collection of programs and downloading a free beta of a game, then I am not sure I can help you.

Most people who know Paizo are part of the online community of D&D, which is like what? - 3-5% of the total D&D community? Consider the number of accounts here, on Wizbook and at Paizo. Consider the only number of D&D players we have been told (6 millions).

6000k vs 50k, that's less than 1%. Now, I am sure that not everyone who knows Paizo downloaded the beta, so obviously there are more. But I doubt that number is >10%, so yeah, most people do not know it.

Most of the hardcore gamers who spend way too much time online know Paizo though, and it's amongst those (the hardcore gamers) that there is a schism of whatever you wish to call it.

And the far more significant fraction of gamers who have heard of PF than you give credit for really isn't even relevant. Knowing that PF exists is not a requirement for thinking that 4E is an inferior edition.

I am amazed that you can never enter an argument without having to say that 4e sucks. We know you do not like it. We do not care. Get over yourself.

 

[malkav666]

@Jack99

That is six million folks for ALL versions of D&D, not 6 million 4e players.

Those folks who are playing D&D once a week just like they have for the last 20 years? They are probably playing the same edition they were 20 years ago if they aren't looking on the internet to see whats new, or going into the game stores to buy new products.

10,000 DDI accounts says a lot about dnd4's popularity. I would even be willing to imply that lots of groups that are serious about it share ddi accounts for the builder. Even if sharing is 6 to 1, that is still only 60k users. (with 50k of them not paying for the service).

I don't know what your specific issue with Pathfinder is. But you cannot just pretend like know one knows what it is, and try and paint that as a fact to me. I go to con's, I run gamedays at game stores and libraries, I help organize gaming for high school clubs, and even boy scout troops. And while what I have seen may be unique to myself. The things I witness are almost the exact opposite of the picture that you and Dannager have painted.

I see folks in all of these venues talking about other antasy games aside from 4e (and yes Pathfinder is definately among those things being discussed, but certainly not the sole topic of discussion).

Yes I see a 4e community in the real world. But IMO it is but a fraction of the D&D-ish community at large. In fact most of the fantasy games I see being played in public venues are not D&D 4e at all. (Most of what I am seeing in my area are 1e games and Pathfinder games TBH). D&D miniatures is more popular than 4e in several of the places I frequent. (In fact if you look at the Dragoncon pics mark posted, all of the folks at the long tables are in fact playing miniatures, only the round tables are actually playing RPGA games)

Certainly the things I am seeing could be viewed as anecdotal evidence. But other folks are seeing similar things and having similar experiences. There reaches a point when so many folks in so many different places are seeing the same thing that the "anecdotal" mantra I see being offered every time someone says that they experienced a scene where 4e was not the top dog, starts to seem rather pointless.

Sure on the internet the divide is about 50/50 as far as I can tell. I see lots of different folks on lots of different sites having issue with the new system, and the same 20-30 4e fans telling them they are wrong. But I am also seeing a 50/50 divide in the real world with folks that have nothing to do with internet forums/blogs/etc.

It is my opinion that the newest version of D&D not being popular is a common conception among the gaming community at large. Every time the topic is brought up, it is almost always a pretty even split on stances as far as I can tell. It is certainly not a D&D vs Pathfinder split, it is more of a D&D 4e vs all other editions and flavors of D&D split. But the split seems pretty large from what I can tell.

But that is just what I am seeing and the opinions I have formed from the things I have seen personally, out in the real world away from the interwebs. Your own experiences may in fact paint the diametrically opposed picture that you play up. But I am just not seeing that in my neck of the woods, so I will step out from under any other blanket statements that are being made about the runaway popularity of the newest edition of D&D. Because they don't seem to apply in my gaming circles.

love,

malkav

 

[Jack99]

Umm, I don't think he mentioned anything about which edition they play.

All he said was that most of the players he knows don't get involved in the "industry" or the edition war thing. Just that they play whatever D&D they want to play and get on with it.

I'm not seeing anything which points to any particular edition here.

I was not responding to Imban's post

 

[Jack99]

@Jack99

That is six million folks for ALL versions of D&D, not 6 million 4e players.

I never said 4e had 6 million players. As for the rest, think what you want. I dunno why I even got into this again. I must have been bored. Because I honestly do not care.

But just for the record. I have no issue with Paizo and Pathfinder. I buy roughly 80% of what they publish. That still doesn't change the fact that I think you are kidding yourself if you think the general D&D public knows who Paizo is and what Pathfinder is.

But hey, think whatever makes you happy. I know I do.

 

[Imban]

Umm, I don't think he mentioned anything about which edition they play.

All he said was that most of the players he knows don't get involved in the "industry" or the edition war thing. Just that they play whatever D&D they want to play and get on with it.

I'm not seeing anything which points to any particular edition here.

Well, yeah.

I guess it depends on whether you're talking about the schism in terms of the total number of D&D players who are not currently playing 4e (which would be at least 8, probably 10/11 of my 11-person 3e group) or the total number of D&D players who think 4e is a blight upon gaming. (which would be 2, maybe 3/11 of the same group)

Obviously the latter number is a lot smaller, but a lot of people seem to be confusing both numbers as suits their agenda - marking the relatively small number of people who absolutely hate 4th edition as the only people not playing it on one hand, or marking everyone who's playing something else as their comrades in hating 4th edition on the other.

I was not responding to Imban's post

...are you saying "I have Imban on ignore and Hussar should too" or just stating the obvious, since my post was after yours?

 

[avin]

More than 18 different people have played D&D with me in the last 12 months.

I'm using 18 because I know their interwebs behavior.

- All of them have played 3.5 and like it.
- 17 have experienced 4E.
- Just one never tried 4E and hate it (likes Wizards...)
- Just one who played 4E decided to never play anymore, after a bad luck on 5 rounds where his warforged was out of combat.
- Probably only 2 have no clue about what PF is.
- Just 1 is a DDI subscriber at this moment (there was more before)
- I'm the only regular over Enworld, Paizo, RPGnet and Wotc boards.

They don't care about edition wars (would play any RPG game offered), except for the dude who never tried 4E and bashes it based on what he read on pdfs and the guy who quit after the bad dice but, heck, this dude ALWAYS leaves the games...

The big majority among us who knows Paizo thinks it has a better image as a company, compared to Wizards.

 

[Jack99]

Well, yeah.

I guess it depends on whether you're talking about the schism in terms of the total number of D&D players who are not currently playing 4e (which would be at least 8, probably 10/11 of my 11-person 3e group) or the total number of D&D players who think 4e is a blight upon gaming. (which would be 2, maybe 3/11 of the same group)

Obviously the latter number is a lot smaller, but a lot of people seem to be confusing both numbers as suits their agenda - marking the relatively small number of people who absolutely hate 4th edition as the only people not playing it on one hand, or marking everyone who's playing something else as their comrades in hating 4th edition on the other.



...are you saying "I have Imban on ignore and Hussar should too" or just stating the obvious, since my post was after yours?

Ups. I misunderstood Hussar's post, and thought he thought I was responding to your post - which I thought was before mine... Ups.

EDIT: I never claimed that everyone plays 4e. I am claiming that most D&D players (whatever the edition they are playing) play D&D and do not waste time going to boards and reading about the game. And thus, a good part of them know nothing (or very little) of Paizo and Pathfinder.

 

[Mallus]

Schism, schmism.

I can only speak about my (extremely) local gaming community. Right now, we're playing 4e and M&M2e (for fantasy, supers, and, soon, an low-power contemporary urban fantasy campaign).

One person doesn't like 4e, one likes it, but misses all the traditional wahoo magic, one seems to like it, but would probably prefer playing AD&D or LBB Traveller, the rest enjoy it. I think it's safe to say, given world enough and time, that any of us would play in a 3.5e or Pathfinder game, but none of us would run one. However, our 4e campaign is on it's 3rd rotating DM, with another player interested in a running an adventure or two (in our rather clever homebrew setting).

Everyone enjoys M&M2e. But that's completely understandable, since it's the best d20 game of the lot.

That's the state of gaming with the only community I'm interested in.

 

[Maggan]

During Dragon Con gaming events, I got to see the schism 1st hand.

"That's ugly."

That was my first thought. But then I remembered how it was in Sweden, nigh on 20 years ago.

The dominant producer of roleplaying games in Sweden (Target Games, later famous for Kult and Mutant Chronicles) experienced a backlash. Gamers bought up their games for cheap at con auctions and then made a scene out of burning them outside the premises.

Literally burning the games. In front of a cheering audience.

Yeah, when I remembered that I thought "nowadays the edition wars are pretty lame compared to when I was young".

/M