Dragon Con: A Sight of the Schism in action

[Jack99]

You are aware that if you go by Amazon, Pathfinder is outselling D&D everywhere since one month?

No I wasn't. I must admit I have better things to do than checking how a RPG that I won't be playing does on amazon.

But apparently you did, so tell us Derren, how many time the last month did you check all these places? (US, Japan, UK, France, Germany)

Because you do realize that things get updated hourly (Atm Pathfinder core rules is nr3, after DMG2 and Revenge of the Giants). Of course, the core gift set is still at nr8, more than 1 year after release.

Anyway, while you might be right, you have provided no proof of anything but you having too much spare time on your hands

 

[avin]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder or 4E are mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Fixed that for ya

 

[D'karr]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

Can we have just one goddamn thread where 4e is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

 

[Jack99]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

Seriously yourself.

I never said Pathfinder would be a failure. In fact, I have often said the opposite. Pathfinder will succeed (or rather already has) beyond the wildest dreams of Mona and co.

Pathfinder can be a huge success and still not be known by most D&D players - as I understand things.

/shrug.

 

[Mistwell]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

Pathfinder being a huge success is not mutually exclusive with most gamers having never heard of Pathfinder.

I do think it is safe to say that Pathfinder is a huge success, and that most gamers have never heard of Pathfinder or Paizo.

 

[MrMyth]

Branching off of that, the RPGA from my exposure seems, I dunno how best to put this, but... incredibly insular? But that's perhaps less the RPGA and just how it feels like WotC has promoted 4e lately, which as a whole feels distinctly excluding of anything but 4e as a viable style of D&D, be it the 4e exclusivity of the RPGA, the renaming of WotC's own forums as the "4e Forums", the DDI adverts to "play the game the way -we- play the game", and a general feel of 'you're either with us or you're against us'. Just doesn't feel exactly very big-tent and inclusive or different styles of play, different editions, etc.

That's odd. The RPGA is, from all signs, currently doing quite well - and notably has had a very strong focus on bringing in new players and being welcoming to all sorts of gamers. The presence of Game Days, for example, and the current RPGA Campaign (Living Forgotten Realms) having a much greater focus on casual play. Or more specifically, being designed to give DMs and groups much more ability to run things as best fits their own style of play - including more DM leeway to adjust modules, the presence of custom adventures within the RPGA, a rewards program to encourage DMing...

Compare this to Living Greyhawk which, as much as I enjoyed it, often was very insular. The emphasis of the campaign was often on conventions and the hardcore players that would attend them. Which had many strengths - you ended up with a much more tightly woven storyline and a greater focus on building a story for that small group of core players... at the cost of building a story for that small group of core players.

I was amazed at the difference when I started LFR. New players every week, casual gamers regularly able to show up and join in and even start running games. WotC putting a lot of effort into making things welcoming and easy for people to join in.

But... I take it your opinions aren't based on any actual experience with the RPGA, so I suspect any insularity involved was not the result of their end of the equation. I'm not saying you should go and seek out the RPGA room at a con and join on in - but if you aren't going to do so, or be willing to have any contact with it at all, you might not be the most reliable source for commenting on the RPGA's current state of affairs.

 

[Gothmog]

One of my buddies from my regular gaming group went to Dragon Con, and indeed there were a number of 4e games there, but they were almost entirely RPGA and mostly in their own area.

As far as the rudeness goes, I've seen some of it locally at my FLGS. Saturday night is open gaming night at the FLGS, and we have several 4e games going that night (some RPGA, some private). Earlier this summer there was a group of three guys who come by the tables every week and bitch and moan about 4e, preach the superiority of 3e/Pathfinder, heckle the players, and disrupt the game (generally being complete asshats). After several weeks of this, the staff and owner of the store asked them to leave "if you're going to behave like spoiled infants." They haven't been back...good riddance.

There is also one private PF game the same night, and these three dudes got thrown out of that game for being jackasses. Oddly enough, 4e players don't go by that table and heckle. If anything, they watch quietly, or ask questions about changes from 3e while trying to cause a minimal amount of distraction to the group.

I think the rudeness that some folks experience comes from a combination of two things: disenfranchisement from the current version of D&D, and immaturity. I can see why it would be disappointing to no longer be able to play your previous game of choice due to design decisions that make the game unenjoyable (this was the position I was in from 2003-2008 during the reign of 3e). However, I used the opportunity to explore other systems, and found some awesome other games to play! There is no reason to put down other games or attack other's opinions regarding a game- that is simply immature and small-minded. The other factor is immaturity, specifically the need to always be "right" or "vindicated". Its what I've seen time and time again in this case. These people try to preach their opinions as fact, and belittle or shout down those who disagree. There is no reasoning with them, because its become such an emotional issue and they have tied a game so closely to their identity as a person. Its immaturity and lack of social skills, pure and simple.

While there are some 4e fans who have engaged in this kind of behavior (every example I've seen has been on forums, and usually in form of sniping back at people they have had history/issues with in the edition wars), the majority of troublemakers I've seen (both in person and online) are people who feel like they have been left behind with the transition from 3e to 4e, and are dealing with it poorly. Hopefully with the release of Pathfinder (which is a good game and an improvement to 3.5, but not to my liking), they will have something to enjoy and engage in, rather than defining themselves as being "anti-4e" and agitators. We can always hope.

 

[AllisterH]

I don't think Shemeska was attacking the current RPGA for its insularity.

I think, as you pointed out MrMyth, the RPGA during the Living Greyhawk years was really about the convention goers and personally it never really interested me.

Nowadays, the RPGA seems a lot more casual friendly as you mention and I don't think a lot of people realize that...

Like anything, the RPGA from when it was created has changed over the years....(there was a great post detailing the changes in how the RPGA dealt with casual vs hardcore and I'd loved to see it again).

It kind of makes sense that LFR takes up all the 4e tables. As mentioned, it is more casual friendly so you don't need those casual D&D game tables that you used to have during earlier Cons when the RPGA was running its various Living Campaigns...

 

[mudbunny]

Pathfinder being a huge success is not mutually exclusive with most gamers having never heard of Pathfinder.

I do think it is safe to say that Pathfinder is a huge success, and that most gamers have never heard of Pathfinder or Paizo.

The difference in sales that are required for 4E to be considered a success and for Pathfinder to be considered a success are, to be honest, orders of magnitude. A value that, for WotC would be an utter failure would probably be a smashing success for Pathfinder.

This is not intended as a slight or slam against Paizo as a company or the PFRPG as a system. It is just a fact that falls out of the respective size of the companies and their expectations.

 

[Vorput]

Can we just have one goddamn thread where Pathfinder is mentioned and a small group doesn't rush forward to assure us all that it's a big failure that most gamers will never hear about?

Seriously.

This (minus the taking of the Lord's name in vain).