Dragon Disciple condensed

[BlackSeed_Vash]

Greetings EN World, I come to you on behalf of one of my players.

Due to storyline as well as his RPing, the concept of being a Dragon Disciple is very appealing to him; however, neither of us like the actual way the Dragon Disciple is written mechanically. I was thinking of condensing the Prc down to 5 levels, and would like your input on how to properly reconstruct it. I wanted to retain the flavor of the Prc, but lose the unnecessary levels. With that in mind I felt I should drop the Bonus Spells as well as the Wings for balancing issues as well as make the Prc back end-heavy.

If the mods feel this needs to be moved please do so.

 

[Arkhandus]

I think this does fit in House Rules, but I dunno yet how to compact the class......really though, it would be tough to fit into 5 levels. The 3.5 half-dragon template is a +3 Level Adjustment, so that would mean you have roughly the equivalent of 2 barbarian levels to spread out amongst 5 levels after mixing in the half-dragon abilities. So something like d4 or d6 hit dice, half BAB, 2 + Int mod skill points per level, mediocre or subpar proficiencies, and strong saving throws all around. Probably d6 hit dice, and maybe no strong Fortitude saves, but I dunno. You'd have to squeeze 2 levels worth of stuff in alongside +3 LA worth of special abilities and whatnot.



Here's a link to my own houseruled version of the Dragon Disciple, which is still 10 levels but beefed up a bit in places (frex, the bonus spells feature isn't just more spells per day of old levels). It's based on my houseruled version of the Half-Dragon template, though, and it's 3.0, so there may be a term or two that's unfamiliar in 3.5, and the level adjustment differs. (my page actually contains more than that; first the half-dragon, then the draconic descendant, then the dragon disciple, then the dragon adept, which is more warrior-focused but requires the character to already have the draconic descendant template).

http://www.geocities.com/mist_phantom/rhuncam-draco.html

 

[FireLance]

I think Races of the Dragon has a half-dragon racial class. It's only three levels (since the half-dragon template has a +3 LA), but like the template, it doesn't grant Hit Dice and the attendant benefits (hit points, skills, etc.)

 

[Piratecat]

I'll scoot this over to House Rules.

 

[Kerrick]

I don't think you can truly do a transformational PrC in 5 levels - at least, not something like the Dragon Disciple. I think this is horribly overpowered class, though, and not very well balanced between transformation and spellcasting - all it does, basically, is change you into a half-dragon, which is an LA +3 template. There are no extra abilities, and you barely even get spells, despite using "their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their dragon blood, realizing its fullest potential." (Nor does it even say how you DO that... this should be a Special requirement.) With something this powerful, I'd actually push it out to 15 levels - make the PC work for it. Give the class some extra non-transformational abilities (just a few, to break up the constant changes and give the class some flavor), add in a few caster levels (maybe every 3 levels), and you could get a workable class.

If you want to stick with 10 (or even go with 5, which I don't recommend), you'd have to make a weaker version of the half-dragon - drop the Strength and Con bonuses to +1 each, and drop the Int bonus, third breath weapon (6d8), second blindsense boost (60 ft.) entirely, as well as the final transformation into half-dragon. What you end up with is a less powerful form that's still semi-draconic but not nearly as powerful as a full half-dragon (somewhere around LA +2).

 

[iceifur]

I think this is horribly overpowered class ... With something this powerful, I'd actually push it out to 15 levels - make the PC work for it ...

A quick double-question, Kerrick: are your opinions based on actual play, or are they just suppositions?

I've had players take the class before, and most of them have regretted it. Taking the class all the way to level 10 is extremely sub-par, especially if you're a primary caster. There are very few bennies in the entirety of D&D that are worth losing 10 levels of primary (0th-9th) spellcasting; the half-dragon template (wings or no wings) isn't one of them.

The only instances where the class shines, IME, are as a dip (for full spellcasting classes like the sorcerer) or as a capstone (for melee/caster hybrids like the hexblade, duskblade, or multiclass fighter/sorcerers). From what I've seen, though, the class just isn't that good -- if it was, then I'd expect most of the min/maxers I play with to have at least a few levels in the class (and they don't).

For FireLance, the class you're thinking of is the Dragon Devotee from Races of the Dragon. It's a 5-level prestige class that grants the +1 LA Draconic template (not Half-Dragon); however, the class is an odd one. Compared to the Dragon Disciple, the Dragon Devotee has:

• A lower HD (d6 rather than d12).
• Better skill points (4+ rather than 2+).
• Fewer good saves (1 instead of 2).
• +2 actual levels of sorcerer spellcasting (even if you didn't cast as a sorcerer before).
• 2 instances of Combat Techniques (either bonus Fighter feats or increases to sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike damage).
• The ability to ignore arcane spell failure for 0th- and 1st-level spells ONLY.

For the OP, if I were to drop the Dragon Disciple down to a lower number of levels, I'd make it a 6-level prestige class (twice the LA of the template). Perhaps something like this:

[b]Dragon Disciple

  Prerequisites, HD, and Skills[/b]: as Dragon Disciple.

  [b]Lvl   BAB   Fort Ref  Will   Special[/b]
  1st   +0    +2   +0   +2     Str +2, natural armor increase (+1)
  2nd   +1    +3   +0   +3     Int +2, claws
  3rd   +1    +3   +1   +3     Breath weapon (3d8), natural armor increase (+2)
  4th   +2    +4   +1   +4     Con +2, bite
  5th   +2    +4   +1   +4     Str +2, natural armor increase (+3)
  6th   +3    +5   +2   +5     Dragon apotheosis

You'd end up with the same loss of BAB as taking the Half-Dragon template, though everything else would be better. Of course, the cost is having to take at least one level in a spontaneous arcane class and spending roughly 1/3 of your total 1-20 level progression for the privilege. Best of all, anyone who dips three levels to get the 1/day breath weapon ends up losing 2 BAB (and 3 levels of spellcasting).

 

[Brazeku]

Taking it as a caster is idiotic. Taking it as a barbarian or other melee fighter is very nice, though. Any melee build character can benefit from the strength boost and the high hit die. The strength boost actually offsets the 3/4 BAB and then some, and adds an extra 6 damage per swing, assuming you're going with a two hander (which you should be). With the offset BAB you're looking at a fair boost in damage for a melee fighter. The high HP (+2 per level on a fighter, like taking improved toughness twice), and AC (+4, not shabby at all) are also nice, the wings are decent, the immunities situationally useful, assorted senses very good.

The breath weapon is crap and the bonus spells are useless. Losing either of those would probably not impact the class at all.

It is a good class, trust me on this. Good enough to get banned from several servers on NWN.


EDIT: math error

 

[FireLance]

For FireLance, the class you're thinking of is the Dragon Devotee from Races of the Dragon.

Nope, I was thinking about the draconic racial class on pages 70 & 71. The class as written is a 4-level class that requires you to get into it at 1st level (and you gain the benefits of the 1st level of the class in addition to your other racial and class abilities). However, you could adapt into a 3-level class it by removing the 1st-level restriction and combining the 1st and 2nd level benefits.

 

[Kerrick]

A quick double-question, Kerrick: are your opinions based on actual play, or are they just suppositions?

Okay, I'll have to admit that I've never seen one in use in PnP.. I've seen a couple in NWN PWs, but I don't know how those have worked out, balance-wise. So for a caster, it's probably not overpowered, due to the loss of spellcasting ability. For a mage/fighter, though, it's a huge benefit - take a couple levels in sorcerer, the rest in fighter or barbarian, and then go DD... I can say, though, that this class is horribly constructed, and I have to wonder how on earth it made it into the DMG.

First off: I've never much cared for the "if you're a sorcerer, then you've got draconic (or fey, or outsider, or whatever) blood", but I can ignore it for the most part, because it's not canon. Here we have a class constructed around that idea. All right... some sorcerers could have draconic blood. I'm cool with that. But... there's no explanation as to HOW, exactly, the PC is supposed to "use their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their dragon blood, realizing its fullest potential." Some suggestions would be nice here, as to how the PC could RP "unlocking his potential", like maybe an actual Special requirement.

Second: Whoever did this class didn't read the template very well. The half-dragon's HD is one higher than the base creature's racial HD. Humanoid racial HD is a d8, so it would be reasonable to make the HD for this class a d10. Also, half-dragons don't get blindsense, yet somehow they do through this class.

Third: For a class that's designed for a spellcaster, there sure isn't much here for them. Bonus spells? Not only did someone invent a new mechanic, but it doesn't even make sense. Where are the cool draconic/spellcaster abilities? This thing is a transformational PrC, but that's all it does. It's uninspired at best. This could be a good PrC if there were additional abilities that made it worth taking - spellcaster levels, magic sense, or something tied to the innate magical ability sorcerers have - but right now, it's more geared toward fighters. Perhaps a clearer statement of the class' purpose would've helped the design here.

And finally: Either tone down the half-dragon template, or give the Dragon Disciple something less powerful. Drop the Strength bonus to +4, the energy immunity to resistance 20 (you're not a full dragon, you don't deserve immunity). ECL +3 is too much for a PrC. There's even an epic progression for this thing on the Wizards site that grants the PC further transformation into a semi-dragon - breath weapon keeps getting more powerful, size increases, and you get a tail.

The reason I suggested bumping it out to 15 levels is that I think each +1 LA should be 5 levels. If you toned down the half-dragon, or granted the PC a lesser template, like the Dragon Devotee, you could make this a 10-tier easily.

 

[iceifur]

The reason I suggested bumping it out to 15 levels is that I think each +1 LA should be 5 levels.

Maybe for base classes (Dread Necromancer 20 --> +4 LA Lich), but I figure each level in a prestige class is worth 1.5 to 2 times that of a base class (Walker in the Waster 10 --> +5 LA Dry Lich). *shrug* We should probably just agree to disagree.

Nope, I was thinking about the draconic racial class on pages 70 & 71.

Doh! I'd never even noticed that section before. Then again, I doubt I'd bother using it; the Savage Progression for half-dragons off the Wizards site has worked out just fine for our group, especially since (like all the savage progressions on the site) you don't have to take all the levels in direct succession.