Dragon Disciple & Half Dragon Questions

[Talonblaze]

Alright, thought this was a significantly different topic from my previous thread that requires a bit of explanation.

A player in our party wanted to play a dragon like character, after learning a true dragon wouldn't be likely we looked at our other options; Dragon Disciple & Half-Dragon.

A few things arose that we were naturally curious about pertaining to the two, whilst being similar in the end had a few things we were unsure of.
Starting here;

According to the MM;

Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon.

Does this: 1a) Also become true for the DD or are they dragon AND the base race? 1b) Allow them to qualify for feats that require being a 'dragon'? (Such as monster feats.)

2) If 1b is deemed allowed; how would one determine a character's racial HD for determining some draconic abilities?

3) Does the DD also gain the LA from template addition? Or is it counted as nulled from being obtained from the class?

Also any additional info for Half-Dragon characters would be greatly appreciated especially for one that is trying to take on the aspect of a full draconic character without too much bending.

 

[anest1s]

His type changes to dragon
Types & Subtypes :: d20srd.org

So he can't be half dragon and also become DD

Yes he can take dragon feats

I have no clue;that racial HD thing is confusing

No, it is from the class.



Well...if he wants to cast spells he becomes DD, if he wants to rip heads off, half-dragon.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Now, are you talking about the level 10 Dragon Disciple class ability Dragon Apotheosis that automatically gives you the Half-Dragon template? Because then you have both.

Or are you talking about a Half-Dragon templated character taking the Dragon Disciple PrC? Because it says in the PrC's prereqs that you can't do that.

So, assuming the first, the SRD on Half-Dragon says
"Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves"


Nothing about retaining your humanoid type.



This means Heck yes, dragon feats, 'cause you're a Dragon!


I agree with @anest1s about the racial HD thing being confusing, so ultimately it'll come down to DM ruling, but I'd say your class HD would be your Racial HD equivalent in this case. Since you can't hit level 10 of this PrC until becoming at least level 15 character, that opens up quite a few fun options for you, but you're also nearly at the end of your feats-every-3-levels at this point.

In another thread regarding the Dread Necromancer, we discussed the finer points of acquiring a template through a class, what that means for gaining the templates abilities and if that includes a level adjustment. I won't repeat all of the points, you can find them here, however the conclusion would be that you do not gain a Level Adjustment, nor do you exactly gain every aspect of the official template. The Dragon Apotheosis text explains which parts of the template become yours. You become a half dragon, gain the dragon type and all features and traits that come with the Dragon type (as the lich gains with gaining the undead type), but you do not gain all the details of the half-dragon template, because they are built into the class as it progresses.

 

[Talonblaze]

His type changes to dragon
Types & Subtypes :: d20srd.org

So he can't be half dragon and also become DD

I have no clue;that racial HD thing is confusing

He wasn't going for both, was mainly deciding which one overall he should go for. (The 'can't be a dragon' requirement for DD is an obvious one)

Now, are you talking about the level 10 Dragon Disciple class ability Dragon Apotheosis that automatically gives you the Half-Dragon template? Because then you have both.

Or are you talking about a Half-Dragon templated character taking the Dragon Disciple PrC? Because it says in the PrC's prereqs that you can't do that.

So, assuming the first, the SRD on Half-Dragon says
"Size and Type

The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves"

Nothing about retaining your humanoid type.

This means Heck yes, dragon feats, 'cause you're a Dragon!

I agree with @anest1s about the racial HD thing being confusing, so ultimately it'll come down to DM ruling, but I'd say your class HD would be your Racial HD equivalent in this case. Since you can't hit level 10 of this PrC until becoming at least level 15 character, that opens up quite a few fun options for you, but you're also nearly at the end of your feats-every-3-levels at this point.

Was mainly asking about the Dragon Apotheosis ability about gaining one or both since it was rather confusing about such. Since he doesn't want to suddenly lose his Human benefits for merely taking a class when he could have gone pure Half-Dragon.

As quoted from the MM here; it seems that even with the type change they retain all abilities and stats from the previous race:

A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

As mentioned above, he wasn't intending of getting both additions, but which looks more favourable overall.

A shame this racial HD business is a tad confusing. We'll work something out if it eventually becomes stale for answers. Seems to be the only thing left to handle out of this conundrum.

 

[Talonblaze]

Also in addition to the Racial HD issue currently in effect, there is another conflicting thing between the MM and the Savage Species note about templates.

Adding Templates to Classed Monsters:
If a template changes the Hit Die type, this change affects all previous Hit Dice, including those for class. Skill points are unaffected unless the template specifically indicates otherwise.
If the template changes skill points, as the half-celestial template does, the change applies to skill points gained from monster Hit Dice and not to skill points gained from classes.

However for the Half-Dragon...

Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

Which one supersedes the other?

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Also in addition to the Racial HD issue currently in effect, there is another conflicting thing between the MM and the Savage Species note about templates.



However for the Half-Dragon...



Which one supersedes the other?

In this case the Class is referring to Monster Class, not Player/Base Class. Because SS adds new rules so to speak, it is treating Racial HD as Monster Class HD. Thus a Half-Dragon template would increase Monster Class HD.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just out of curiosity, had you considered the Draconic Heritage feats, found in CompArc and Dragon Magic? You can get a fairly draconic PC using those...well, as long as you take a level of Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer or Stalwart Sorcerer.

 

[Talonblaze]

Just out of curiosity, had you considered the Draconic Heritage feats, found in CompArc and Dragon Magic? You can get a fairly draconic PC using those...well, as long as you take a level of Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer or Stalwart Sorcerer.

We mentioned to him that it was a popular build, however it 1) didn't give him the 'look' he wanted. *shrugs.* 2) he said he didn't want to lose some of feats for combat he was aiming for that he wanted for being a dragon type. But he's being stubborn. XD Wants his cake and eat it too. (Typical dragon.)

We'll see if swinging him to the spellcaster build. might get the dm to allow him to just have the bloodtype to allow him to be a psuedo-dragon. (lol, see what I did there?)

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Have you guys looked into the Races of the Dragon book?

Dragonborn of Bahamut, Spellscale, Kobolds, Dragon descended (Half-Dragons, Draconic), there are plenty of options here, complete with feats to customize the "look".

These races all have the dragonblood subtype, which allow for access to some sweet feats to make them more dragonlike.


Hiring an NPC with the Wyrmgrafter feat is another way to gain a dragon "look" no matter what race you are.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We mentioned to him that it was a popular build, however it 1) didn't give him the 'look' he wanted. *shrugs.* 2) he said he didn't want to lose some of feats for combat he was aiming for that he wanted for being a dragon type. But he's being stubborn. XD Wants his cake and eat it too. (Typical dragon.)

I get the part about burning the feats, but they open up wings, BWs, scales...what more is he looking for?

A Sorc with Draconic heritage who multiclassed into Cleric or Favored Soul of Bahamut (or Tiamat, if he swings that way) or some such could then get into The Geomancer PrCl and make Drift selections that would make him seem even more Draconic...

But, as you say, it IS someone else's PC.