Dragon Disciple...WHY?

alt.Dragon Disciple PrC

Buddha the DM said:
I have created alternate versions of both the Dragon Disciple PrC, and the Half-Dragon Template. I have included the addresses for them below.

PrC:
http://harineldermage.tripod.com/d20/altdrag-disc.html

Template:
http://harineldermage.tripod.com/d20/althalf-dragon.html

Please let me know what you think of them.

I like the general concept (spells, AC, STAT etc)
BUT
There is no balance the various dragon types. I would give different pre requisites and so push some of the over the top dragons into EPIC (not that I play EPIC or plan to but some of these are obviously way way way too BUFF fo <20th level)
 

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I have a L-20 sorcerer in my epic campaign who is taking this PrC beginning at L-21. He basically feels that there is no point in advancing sor in epic levels, so why not?

As an aside, you must be able to cast arcane spells spontaneously to take this PrC (i.e., Bard or Sorcerer). But gnomes can cast three arcane spells (each once per day). They don't need to be prepared... hence spontaneous? >:) Make a gnome fighter or barbarian and just move into this PrC for some ability increases.

P.S. Here's an epic-advancement of this PrC that I sent to another mailing list. Enjoy...

Dragon Disciple (epic level progression)

The dragon disciple has awakened the dragon within, and his continued pursuit of arcane magic allows him to continue his transformation towards greater draconic power. The epic dragon disciple has completed his transformation into a half-dragon, complete with the power inherent in his magical blood, but his apotheosis is just the first step in his quest for power and self-mastery. Through his studies of arcane magic, the epic dragon
disciple refines and enhances his gifts, unlocking greater mysteries and developing powers that may even surpass his draconic heritage.
Epic dragon disciples favor feats that enhance their already considerable abilities, such as Armor Skin, Damage Reduction, Improved Spell Resistance, Great Charisma, and Great Strength. Many epic dragon disciples continue their studies of arcane magic, and improve their repertoire of spells with Improved Spell Capacity, Epic Spell Casting or Spell Knowledge.

Hit Die: d12 (this includes the hit die increase gained when the character underwent dragon apotheosis and became a half-dragon)

Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier

Spells: The epic dragon disciple continues to gain bonus spells at 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 18th, and 19th levels, as well as every level that is ten levels higher than these. (i.e., he does not gain a bonus spell at levels 13, 17, 20, 23, 27, 30, etc...). These bonus spells are gained just as bonus spells from high ability scores (i.e., they increase spells per day, not the number of spells known) and can be added to any spell level that the epic dragon disciple can cast when gained. If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide which class benefits from the
bonus spell. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted.

Natural Armor Boost: At 11th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the epic dragon disciple's natural armor increases by one point.

Bonus feat: At 12th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the epic dragon disciple gains a bonus feat selected from the dragon disciple bonus feat list.

Dragon Disciple bonus feat list: Additional Breath Weapon Use*, Armor Skin, Breath Weapon Admixture*, Breath Weapon Substitution*, Damage Reduction, Enhanced Breath Weapon*, Energy Resistance, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Toughness, Expanded Breath Weapon*,
Extended Lifespan, Great Charisma, Great Constitution, Great Intelligence, Great Strength, Ignore Material Components, Improved Breath Weapon*, Improved Darkvision, Improved Low-Light Vision, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Spell Resistance, Intensify Spell, Multispell, Permanent Emanation, Polyglot, Spell Knowledge, Spell Opportunity, Spell Stowaway, Spontaneous
Spell, Tenacious Magic.

*Denotes new feat described below.

11. 1 bonus spell, natural armor boost
12. 1 bonus spell
13. Bonus feat
14. 1 bonus spell, natural armor boost
15. 1 bonus spell
16. 1 bonus spell, Bonus feat
17. natural armor boost
18. 1 bonus spell
19. 1 bonus spell, Bonus feat
20. natural armor boost

Additional Breath Weapon Use [Epic]
You may use your breath weapon more often than normal.
Prerequisites: Con 25, natural breath weapon.
Benefit: You may use your breath weapon one additional time each day.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

Breath Weapon Admixture [Metamagic] [Epic]
You can modify your breath weapon to mix in an equal amount of another type of energy.
Prerequisites: Breath Weapon Substitution, Energy Admixture, Energy Substitution, one other metamagic feat, 25 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), natural breath weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You can modify your breath weapon to add an equal amount of the chosen type of energy. The altered breath weapon works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt (see Tome and Blood, p. 39, for more details). When you choose to modify your breath weapon using this feat, it uses two uses of
your daily allotment of breath weapon attacks. (Thus, if you can only use your breath weapon once per day, you cannot use this feat.) Also, using your modified breath weapon in this way is a full-round action.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, choosing a different energy type each time. You can use this feat multiple times on a single breath weapon, adding an additional use of your daily allotment each time.

Breath Weapon Substitution [Metamagic] [Epic]
You can modify your breath weapon to use a different type of energy.
Prerequisites: Energy Substitution, one other metamagic feat, 25 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), natural breath weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You can modify your breath weapon to use the chosen type of energy instead of its regular type. The altered breath weapon works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt (see Tome and Blood, p. 39, for more details). When you choose to modify your breath weapon using this feat is a full-round action.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, choosing a different energy type each time.

Enhanced Breath Weapon [Epic]
The damage from your breath weapon is more difficult to evade.
Prerequisites: Con 25, natural breath weapon.
Benefit: The DC for any saving throw related to your breath weapon is increased by 2.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

Expanded Breath Weapon [Epic]
The area covered by your breath weapon is greater than normal.
Prerequisites: Con 25, natural breath weapon.
Benefit: The area of your breath weapon doubles. For example, a 60-ft line is doubled to 120 feet, and a 30-ft cone becomes a 60-ft cone.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack. Remember that two doublings is a tripling, etc...

Improved Breath Weapon [Epic]
The damage from your breath weapon is more powerful than normal.
Prerequisites: Con 25, natural breath weapon.
Benefit: Your breath weapon deals an additional 2 dice of damage. Thus, if your breath weapon normally deals 6d4 damage, it now deals 8d4.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

-----------------------------------
Ozmar the Dragon-Wrangler
 

Brekki said:
Why would you want to be a high level sorcerer ?

Start the PrC with sor1/clr7 and get all those divine powers, later take 2 more clr levels and add lvl 5 bonus spells ;)

Taking the halfdragon template has never seemed worth it to me, being 4 lvl's behind in HP/feats/skills. With this PrC you can be a halfdragon AND have a lot of cool bonus stuff to go alongside it.

NO.

Race:Non-dragon

Emphisis mine.
 

Plz read my posting again ... or should I have sayd:

"Start the PrC with sor1/clr7, any race but dragon..."

I think it was pretty clear ;)
 

Buddha the DM said:
So there's no balance... How would you fix it?

First I have to say I looked at your 1/2 dragon and I will use in for NPC's in my game.

How to ballance....:):):):) knows??

Is there any reason everyone sticks to 10 levels?

Without loosing the basic principle of what you are doing I guess you could add bonus abilities at a similar rate with all the templates so the class in internaly ballanced.

Spread the powerfull transformations over more levels e.g force template over 20 (or more) levels.

The transformation being over say 8 levels for a white

You could also give different perequisites
 

ZR said:
Is there any reason everyone sticks to 10 levels?

I didn't, for MY alternate Dragon Disciple class. I'll try and put it down below, but I'm fairly certain teh formatting on teh Level Advancement table will get mucked up ... note, it's based on a modified Half-Dragon template, whose breath weapon and damage resistances are scalar to character level (IOW a Fighter-5 Half Dragon will have a better breath weapon, and better resistance, than a Fighter-2 Half Dragon).

Anyway, here'sthe class:



Dragon Disciple II ...
This prestige class was among the least attractive to it's target character types, and was also based on the prior, IMO insufficiently level-scalar Half-Dragon template. It has undergone numerous private revisions, searching for the most balanced way to allow Sorcerors and Bards to pick up the Half-Dragon template, yet not cripple their spellcasting capabilities ... while remaining reasonably balanced.

As a result, the -current- incarnation is a five-level short-track prestige class; little actual spellcasting is gained, but the Half-Dragon racial template is gained much more swiftly ... leaving advancement room and time for adding to the prior class. Net loss for using the Prestige Class to gain the template is 3 levels of spellcastign ability; note the entry requirements are a bit tougher/stricter to compensate for the overall improvement in the class. Note also that Wizards are now equally qualified; the ability to cast arcane spells "without preparation" has been replaced with possession of the new feat "Draconic Bloodline" ...

Requirements
Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a full or half dragon)
Knowledge (Arcana): 8 ranks
Knowlewdge (Dragon Lore): 4 ranks
Feats: Draconic Bloodline
Languages: Draconic
Spells: Ability to cast arcane spells, except as provided by racial abilities.
Special: The player chooses a dragon type when taking the first level of this prestige class, subject to the DM's approval.

Class Skills
The dragon disciple II's class skills (and the key ability for each skills) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).

Skill points at each level are 2 + Int Modifier.


Code:
[color=green]
LEVEL	BASE   -Saving Throws- Special
.       ATTACK  Fort Ref Will
1       +1      +2   +0  +2    Half Natural AC bonus; half
                               Resistance; Impunity to
                               Half-Dragon Template ECL

2       +2      +3   +1  +3    STR +2, CHA +4
                               +1 Spellcaster Level

3       +3      +3   +2  +3    CON +2, Breath Weapon at 1/2 
                               Character Level

4       +4      +4   +2 +4     STR +2, full Natural AC and
                               Resistance
                               +1 Spellcaster Level

5       +5      +5   +3 +5     Full Template, including
                               attribute modifiers not yet
                               applied
[/color]

I can post the modified Template itself later, if folks are interested.

[edit]noticed too late that the Table was showing in black-on-dun text, ick ... it's fixed now. I hope. :D [/edit]
 
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my house-rule

IMC, I swapped out the bonus spells for +1 caster level at every odd level, and dropped enlargement (although I'll still allow my DD player to get wings). This has worked quite well and seems reasonably balanced.
 

Brekki said:
Plz read my posting again ... or should I have sayd:

"Start the PrC with sor1/clr7, any race but dragon..."

I think it was pretty clear ;)

No not that, bottom paragraph, it look like your compairing, Half-dragons and half-dragons who are dragon disciples ASWELL, If this is about how you get good abilities and half-dragon template at the end, I apologize
 

I am comparing, but between the template and the PrC. The template doesn't seem worth being 4 lvl's behind to me. The PrC does seem worth taking 10 lvls in to me, but not if you put the bonus spells in sorcerer.

No apology needed, just brainstorming here :)
 
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