Dragon/Dungeon What Option Did You Take?

[mhacdebhandia]

I signed up for Pathfinder.

 

[Templetroll]

I wasn't interested in the first path described so didn't want to extend my subscription to include it. I'll grab the last couple issues from the bookstore. I think the Gamemaster products will be of more use to me in future than the Pathfinders

 

[Glyfair]

I wonder how small the AP's will go to? I could see a 1-10 or a 5-15 AP being made if Pathfinder runs for long enough. I'm not too sure about a 5-20 one though.

I'm sure it depends on demand. I'm beginning to run Eyes of the Lich Queen which runs from 5-10. To me 6 levels seems about right for this sort of thing.

The problem with 1-20 is that they don't leave much room for "doing your own thing." If I were to do a 1-20 AP, it would be a campaign. Adventure 1 might go from level 1-2. It would have a few seeds that the DM could develop to gradually lead to Adventure 2 which might be level 5-6, which would have seeds leading to Adventure 3 at level 10, etc.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

What business practices are you referring to? I haven't ever had a problem with them (or heard of anyone that has) so I am interested in hearing about your disagreement with them.

I know you didn't ask me, but I've had my problems with them. They haven't been as friendly as everyone makes them out to be towards their long-term subscribers.

First, I was apprehensive when the Paizo team took over. New people in charge tend to make changes. I asked Erik Mona face-to-face at the first GenCon Paizo was in control of the magazines if any changes were going to be made to Dungeon. I made it very clear that I was taking his word that there would be no significant changes to the magazine when I signed up for another 3-year subscription. Of course, Polyhedron was soon added to the magazine, definitely a significant change in my eyes. Erik's only defense was to offer me a refund, but that left me with the very difficult decision to either continue paying for content I didn't want (Polyhedron) or lose the content I did. I begrudgingly stuck with them.

Second, there was the fuzzy math of the switch from semi-monthly to monthly. They were trying to pull a fast one on a math major. "Now in two months you'll get 200 pages (2 100-page magazines) of content instead of 150!" But the conversion of my subscription was in number of issues, not length of subscription. So my 3-year subscription became an 18-month subscription. The content I was paying for went down 33% and the length of my subscription got cut in half. Yet they insisted we subscribers were getting MORE content. After enough complaints they threw us a small bone and added one or two issues. I believe I had 28 issues remaining and they added 2. The 28 issues before the change would have been 4,200 pages of content, after conversion I got 3,000. Explain again Paizo how I got more content?

Third, the transition: I am not a fan of the APs. We played SCAP almost to the end. We played AoWAP to the end. But we lost interest quickly in the STAP. It's just not what our group was looking for. I do think the Gamemastery modules look good, but Paizo has decided not to support non-AP fans. Look at the great deal you get if Pathfinder is for you. I asked if they would extend the same deal to fans of the non-AP adventures. I was even ready to sign up for a month-to-month subscription to the Gamemastery modules. But they showed me that they only care enough for the AP fans and will only offer a good deal to them with Pathfinder.

That's their third strike with me. They no longer offer what I'm looking for and have not provided the customer service I would expect for such a loyal subscriber (I was a subscriber of Dungeon for the entirety of Paizo's run). So I'm done with them. I'm taking my cash and crossing my fingers (but not holding my breath) that WoTC's DI will somehow provide what I'm looking for.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I had subscribed just one issue to late to get the savage tides AP(Though I bought that one issue singly) so I only had enough for one issue of pathfinder to convert to.

I will see what I get from it, and then decide if the international rates plus base book costare worth it. But I cannot possibly imagine it will be.

 

[Arnwyn]

The problem with 1-20 is that they don't leave much room for "doing your own thing." If I were to do a 1-20 AP, it would be a campaign.

That's an AP feature, not a bug.

I don't want a "mega-module" (well, I do want those too, actually, but that's not my point!). When I buy an AP, I'm expecting a full-length campaign. (Hell, I'm unhappy that the first one stops at 15th. Boo! Adventures of that level are too few as it is, and a brutal pain to create. What do you think I'm paying you guys for, Paizo?!)

 

[WayneLigon]

I subscribed about two weeks before the announcement. I chose the Pathfinder option. I can't wait!

 

[Erik Mona]

I know you didn't ask me, but I've had my problems with them. They haven't been as friendly as everyone makes them out to be towards their long-term subscribers.

First, I was apprehensive when the Paizo team took over. New people in charge tend to make changes. I asked Erik Mona face-to-face at the first GenCon Paizo was in control of the magazines if any changes were going to be made to Dungeon. I made it very clear that I was taking his word that there would be no significant changes to the magazine when I signed up for another 3-year subscription. Of course, Polyhedron was soon added to the magazine, definitely a significant change in my eyes. Erik's only defense was to offer me a refund, but that left me with the very difficult decision to either continue paying for content I didn't want (Polyhedron) or lose the content I did. I begrudgingly stuck with them.

I can only answer questions with the information available to me at any given time, and when your original query was put to me, there were no plans to make significant changes to the magazine. Our publisher at the time later decided to merge Polyhedron and Dungeon, which proved to be a very unpopular decision. The second decision I made (after ordering a Warduke cover from Wayne Reynolds) after becoming editor-in-chief of Dungeon was to cancel the Polyhedron section, based entirely on reader feedback. Remember, I was the editor of that section, so it wasn't an easy trigger to pull, but pull it I did. On my first day.

It's also worth pointing out that Paizo wasn't "new people" at the time of the shift from Wizards of the Coast in 2002. The publisher who made the Dungeon/Poly decision was the same publisher we had at WotC, and the staff was identical for the first couple years of the transition.

To give you some idea, I am now the _only_ employee (of some 26 or so) currently at the company who was a part of the original transition. I'm not saying it's unfair to hold a grudge from five years ago, but the guy who made that decision was two publishers ago.

Second, there was the fuzzy math of the switch from semi-monthly to monthly. They were trying to pull a fast one on a math major. "Now in two months you'll get 200 pages (2 100-page magazines) of content instead of 150!" But the conversion of my subscription was in number of issues, not length of subscription. So my 3-year subscription became an 18-month subscription. The content I was paying for went down 33% and the length of my subscription got cut in half. Yet they insisted we subscribers were getting MORE content. After enough complaints they threw us a small bone and added one or two issues. I believe I had 28 issues remaining and they added 2. The 28 issues before the change would have been 4,200 pages of content, after conversion I got 3,000. Explain again Paizo how I got more content?

This issue is so old that I've forgotten the arguments and details. Our old publisher, Johnny, explained this in great detail. Given that the other available option was to cancel the magazine outright, going monthly was the best of several bad options. But again, that was two publishers ago. I can see that Adventure Paths are not your cup of tea, but I hope that you'll agree that the various options we've given customers related to this transition are more than equitable.

Third, the transition: I am not a fan of the APs. We played SCAP almost to the end. We played AoWAP to the end. But we lost interest quickly in the STAP. It's just not what our group was looking for. I do think the Gamemastery modules look good, but Paizo has decided not to support non-AP fans. Look at the great deal you get if Pathfinder is for you. I asked if they would extend the same deal to fans of the non-AP adventures. I was even ready to sign up for a month-to-month subscription to the Gamemastery modules. But they showed me that they only care enough for the AP fans and will only offer a good deal to them with Pathfinder.

We are working on setting up a month-to-month subscription service for GameMastery Modules, but we have not yet worked out the logistics, and the service will not be offered as part of the transition. (We hope to announce something soon, though.) It's unfortunate if that leaves you out of the loop. One of the most difficult parts of this whole thing is that we will not be able to serve every one of our readers in the same way we did with Dragon and Dungeon. Without the 50+ combined years of inertia, we can't afford to put out two magazines of the same quality, so we decided to stick with one magazine-like product that offers readers a more fully realized version of the most popular feature we've ever introduced in the magazines--the Adventure Paths.

Admittedly, not everyone is going to want or need an Adventure Path, and our hope is that those customers will take a look at our other offerings and decide whether or not to buy them on a case-by-case basis.

Good luck with the Digital Initiative. I hope it offers what you are looking for.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I'm not saying it's unfair to hold a grudge from five years ago, but the guy who made that decision was two publishers ago.

Oh, I don't hold a grudge really. I was just answering the question of what business practices were in question from your company. If I had a grudge I would have cancelled my subscription in spite way back then.

We are working on setting up a month-to-month subscription service for GameMastery Modules, but we have not yet worked out the logistics, and the service will not be offered as part of the transition. (We hope to announce something soon, though.) It's unfortunate if that leaves you out of the loop. One of the most difficult parts of this whole thing is that we will not be able to serve every one of our readers in the same way we did with Dragon and Dungeon. Without the 50+ combined years of inertia, we can't afford to put out two magazines of the same quality, so we decided to stick with one magazine-like product that offers readers a more fully realized version of the most popular feature we've ever introduced in the magazines--the Adventure Paths.

Admittedly, not everyone is going to want or need an Adventure Path, and our hope is that those customers will take a look at our other offerings and decide whether or not to buy them on a case-by-case basis.

I would, but it would also be nice to receive an equal amount of credit towards Gamemastery Modules as you are giving to Pathfinder customers. My 11 remaining issues turning into $96 in Pathfinder [a product I have no interest in], but only $40 in Gamemastery Modules (via the store credit) [a product I am interested in and was considering an ongoing subscription when it became available] doesn't sit well with me. I still don't believe it unreasonable of me to ask for a more equitable deal.

Paizo has made its business decisions and so have I. No hard feelings, I thank you for all the years of great adventures and low prices. And I wish you luck with your new lines.

Good luck with the Digital Initiative. I hope it offers what you are looking for.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

Like I said, I'm not holding my breath. They have alot to prove. I'll probably end up having to find another company that fills the void for inexpensive, good-quality stand-alone adventures, start writing more of my own, or use up what I've accumulated from the pages of Dungeon and then look for a less intensive hobby. Maybe I'll join a Eukre league.

 

[DaveMage]

I selected Pathfinder.

As long as Erik and James are making D&D-like adventures with their usual flair, I'll buy 'em.