Dragon magazine is considered official!

[The Sigil]

Not you, silly! That gut without facial features that works in the next cubicle...

Yikes... now THERE'S a scary thought for you... a Distender (see Green Ronin's Legions of Hell) working at WotC!

Then again, doesn't a gut by definition lack facial features?

--The Sigil

 

[d4]

Then again, doesn't a gut by definition lack facial features?

man, i had a faceless gut in the cubicle next to me at my last job. but that's another story.

 

[ryard]

As a MEMBER of Grey's gaming group, I just want to distance myself from a couple of his comments. I've subscribed to Dragon since dang near time began, and have had more than one discussion with Greymarch about its validity. I still remember pointing at the text on the cover..."It says it's official RIGHT HERE!!!" And that was only a month ago. Half of the regular group has always been in favor of using materials from third party sources...half aren't. Simple as that. It's just usually not worth the arguments, and, to be perfectly honest, it would be a little unfair for me (or the DM, for that matter) to pull some rule or kit or class from a source that not everyone has full and equal access to. I know I'd be mad as hell if the DM pulled something from an obscure third party source that ended up causing some serious imbalance in the game, and I'm forced to purchase the material to keep up with the Joneses (which, even if it was loaned to me, I don't have time to peruse). And I know the DM would be unhappy if I suddenly cast some obscene spell from a book he's never even heard of.

The DM does not rule the roost in our games. He makes decisions, and sometimes he has to pull rank, but he knows damn well that everything better remain fair or people will walk. Power mongering DMs do NOT interest us, and anyone who is part of the DM's Way or the Highway school needs to understand that saying "whatever the DM rules" is NOT going to satisfy Greymarch because that's not what he's asking.

 

[Zerakon]

As a MEMBER of Grey's gaming group, ... It's just usually not worth the arguments, and, to be perfectly honest, it would be a little unfair for me (or the DM, for that matter) to pull some rule or kit or class from a source that not everyone has full and equal access to. I know I'd be mad as hell if the DM pulled something from an obscure third party source that ended up causing some serious imbalance in the game...

Surely you wouldn't object to a DM who brought in some weird concept that she thought was balanced?

IMO a game with a DM that plays strictly by the rules is boring game. I want a creative DM who makes up (or brings in from 3rd party sources) exotic new creatures, weird new spells, strange new magic items.

In other words, the more "unofficial" the DM is, the more fun the game is.

I would agree that the group should run a tight ship as far as what classes (prestige or otherwise) the PCs have access to. However, I disagree that allowing anything from Dragon constitutes a "tight ship."

BTW is WotC selling official toilet paper off their website? I'm running low and I'd prefer to use only official wipes.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't have the foggiest idea what my DM is using in terms of feats, prestige classes, monsters, etc. My DM (and me, when I DM) don't make a habit of showing the players all my notes, character sheets and monster books. This concept of "it's not fair for the DM to use a feat I can't use" strikes me as incredibly odd. Does the DM use the Scent feat on his monsters? You can't use that either.

 

[Darklone]

*snip* Spring attack etc... *snip*

Wow... would you care to elaborate why you think Spring Attack is too powerful?
About the customerservice... well. Ok, they can give the right answers sometimes.

 

[Starman]

Wow... would you care to elaborate why you think Spring Attack is too powerful?

I was wondering the same thing. I think that this is the first time I've heard anyone describe Spring Attack as too powerful.

Starman

 

[diaglo]

I was wondering the same thing. I think that this is the first time I've heard anyone describe Spring Attack as too powerful.

yeah, mostly people just call it cheesy or cartoonish.

 

[Psion]

Heh... for a second, I thought ryard was "ryand" and thought "Ryan Dancey is downplaying the utility of third party products?"

At any rate, Ryard:

I know I'd be mad as hell if the DM pulled something from an obscure third party source that ended up causing some serious imbalance in the game, and I'm forced to purchase the material to keep up with the Joneses (which, even if it was loaned to me, I don't have time to peruse).

As many have stated, the point is that the "Dragon stamp of approval" is no guarantee at all that a race or class will be better than one from a third party source. In fact, it has seemed to me for the last year or so, the content of the Dragon has been in large part less-well-done versions of third party d20 products (the current issue comes to mind. The variant blackguards got nothin of Green Ronin's Unholy Warrior Handbook in terms of flavor and flexibility.)

Of course, I'll be the first to point out that third party sources can put out some outlandish stuff... but so can Dragon. The point here is that it falls upon the DM to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the "official stamp of approval" is not a useful aid in that process.

 

[Desdichado]

Heh... for a second, I thought ryard was "ryand" and thought "Ryan Dancey is downplaying the utility of third party products?"

I had that same wild thought for a moment.

A big disconnect, it seems, is that the replies to this thread feature many, many folks saying that "official" has nothing to do with "good" or "balanced" and yet, that seems to be a big part of my greymunch and ryard are concerned about it. That disconnect has yet to be unaddressed; they haven't provided any logical basis for why official matters, because the reason they do seem to be providing is faulty in terms of what it actually provides. Much of the "official" material is downright bad from a "balance" or "fair" perspective, whereas much unofficial material is head and shoulders above Wizards of the Coast and what they've provided. This has been pointed out many times here and on the Wizards boards, and yet greymarch and ryard are content to blithely cover their ears and say "I'm not listening!" and then turn around and wonder why no one agrees with them.

Now that's fine; we don't have to win any debates or anything, but it seems the thread (and the others on the Wizards' boards) has long since ground to a halt in terms of useful discussion and now posts are essentially retreading earlier posts in slightly different language.