Dragon Mountain defeated without even entering it!

[Wolfspider]

No, probably not. I've never made such radical changes to game reality, even when my players have made monumental mistakes. (See the thread on stupid player mistakes for details on one such encounter featuring Orcus.)

I don't cushion every encounter for them--don't think that I do. Characters die frequently enough in my campaigns. But if the death would have been pointless, I'll probably fudge a bit. One thing I hate is fumbles. Characters should never die solely due to a bad role, as can happen in systems like MERP and Rolemaster and some homebrew D&D campaigns.

Anyway, if a character is playing stupidly, then I let the dice fall where they may. But if the dice say that a character will die and its no real fault of the player (he or she has been playing intelligently), then I'll probably reduce the effects somewhat.

I call this mercy.

Think we should start up a seperate thread on this issue?

EDIT: Looking at your original question, I see that I misread it at first. Here's my real answer to it.

How would the character know I fudged it? I must say I've never had a player complain when his or her character had a near-death experience instead of a outright fatal one. As far as my rolls go, I tend to keep them private.

 

[James McMurray]

Edit: removed double post. . .

 

[Tsyr]

I think It's been done, though it was quite a while ago, if I remember right.

 

[James McMurray]

Wolfspider: no problem, I think we've agreed to disagree before actually. As for your story, I wouldn't place the blame anywhere, except perhaps on the character who decided that adventuring was the life for him. Adventuring is great work if you can survive it, but the risks are great as well. If everyone's god fudged to keep them alive, there'd be no farmers, because adventuiring is much more profitable.

I agree wholeheartedly that its a game designed to have fun with. We just have different views of what's fun. In your girlfriend's example, I probably would have killed her, then figured some way to bring her back, and enhanced the storyline with it. Of course, I say probably because bringing girlfriends into the discussion changes the dynamics. . . I have killed my wife's characters though, and we're still (mostly) on speaking terms.

med stud: I could do that, but then I'd have to think of a way to get my players to go there, and I'm too lazy forthat. ;-) I'll probably end up reusing the adventure in a later campaign though, as its a pretty nice dungeon crawl, with some roleplying opportunities as well. Also, the party may decide to go after the Green Dragon some day, and she lives in dragon mountain now.

Tsyr: Its DMing like that which started our no fudging policy in my group to begin with. I can certainly understand not wanting to be under another DM like that!

Everyone; as for making new thread, I never mind if my threads get hijacked, so long as it takes them down a road with some interesting discussions and debates.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Quick questions:

What level was the party?

How much treasure is in the mountain?

Out of curiosity, why did you use a juvenile dragon with dragon mountain instead of the old red thats in the Dragon Mountain module?

 

[James McMurray]

The party was three characters:

Human Cleric of Heironious / Ranger (favored enemy dragons). 13/1

Human Paladin / Knight of the Middle Circle (total levels 13, not sure how many in each)

Aasimar Sorceror 13

In the mountain there is approximately 500,000gp and a crap load of magic. The party will be getting a good portion of that (90% of the money, and 9 out of ten items, chosen one by one at random). They will be losing the artifact they carry with them however, s there's no way the Gret Wyrm Green will just let them walk away with an Amulet designed to help kill dragons.

Finally, I chose to use Arthax instead of Ifraneya because of his previous ties with the party. They would be much more likely to go there if their nemesis lived ther. Plus I enjoyed the fact that the current party would have to deal with a villain created by the same players (but different characters).

I fully expect the party to use most of the money (and sell some of the items) in order to get some really nice gear, most of which will be completely useless in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and will actually hurt them when used in Ravager of Time (as it involves duplicates of the party). Finally, assuming all goes to plan and they survive those two, they'll be granted a kingdom at the mouth of the Valley of the Mage. The Valley will be the source of the catalyst for a nice run through the Bloodstone Series. The epic level handbook should be out by then, and I for one can't wait to try it on for size. The Bloodstone Trilogy gives great opportunities for massive foes, tactical warfare, diplomacy, and role-playing. That should be the topper for the campaign, and if everyone survives all the way through (hard to avoid without Total Party Killed scenario at that high a level), they'll be thanked for their roles in stopping Orcus with a chance to quest for divinity. This will end the current campaign and start a new one, with new characters.

Of course, there's a heck of a lot of ifs involved in that paragraph...

 

[Wolfspider]

Ahhh, Throne of Bloodstone. Here's my experience with that great adventure, as I related it on another thread.

SPOILERS

Bloodstone Blunder
A group of four high level characters, a ranger, a wizard, a fighter/mage, and a straight fighter, were at the point in the epic Bloodstone where they had to face Orcus on his home plane.

The four heroes stood opposite the Demon Prince, getting ready to attack, when suddenly the fighter (played by a fellow named Scott) declared that he was attacking his fellow adventurers with intent to subdue them. Attacking with surprise, he knocked them all out in one round. He then declared his undying loyalty to the Lord of the Undead. Orcus rewarded the fighter by tapping him with his wand, killing him. He then had the three other adventurers tortured for many many years before fashioning their remains into undead chamber pots.

After I had described the final fate of the party, everyone sat in silence for a while. The player of the wizard asked Scott quietly, "Why did you do it?"

Scott, his face somehow both filled with blood and flushed with whiteness, explained that he thought that if he could trick Orcus into thinking that his character was on his side, then the party would be able to able to strike with utter surprise later.



Mind you, he didn't mention anything about this brilliant plan earlier....

Heh...

Have fun!

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Cool. Two more questions:

Why just a juvenile? Not much of a match for 3 13-14th level characters. Especially considering the wad of treasure.

What is involved in the contract that ensures that the Green follows it? I know he's lawful evil, but still, that's a very tempting amount of treasure.

 

[James McMurray]

Wolfspider:

Unless they're incredibly powerful by that point, I can't imagine my PCs succesfully bearding Orcus in his Lair. Odds are I'll be using his Creature Catalog stats rather than the WotC stats. I think WotC's version is a bit too watered down for the power that should be Orcus. Of course, knowing my party, they may very well try it. And with my luck, they'll succeed :-O

Arcane Runes Press: He was not just a juvenile dragon, he was also a 10th level evoker, making him CR 19. In one of my posts, there's a link to his history, followed by a bit more info, that explains his relationship to the party.

As for the Green, he'll follow the contract because if he doesn't, he will be subject to the penalty clause. The contract was written by a devil, and the penalty clause stipulates that anyone violating the contract gets to be his eternal servant. by agreeing to the contract, he had hoped to use a loophole that he had noticed and the party hadn't to get most of their nice treasure.

Also, he knows that high level adventurers are ont just something you kill for fun. Just as the party got in trouble for killing dragons, there's a chance these indivduals would have allies that would come looking for the dragon should he kill them. It's a delicate balance, which the party maintains by not upsetting this dragon in any way shaoe or form.

 

[Berandor]

Dang. Sorry to intrude...

James McMurray: I think you're right about trust. But to me, trust between players and DM is not by slavish adhering to dice rolls, but by insuring the best experience for the players.

The players should not trust the DM that he does what the dice say, but they should trust him that whatever trick he pulls, he is not abusing his power, and all he does is ensuring the most fun for everyone.

They should trust in the DM that, if the opponent somehow has more HP than before, or does not fall down the cliff in round one to a fiery death even though he rolled 1% chance, than the Dm has its reason for it, and these reasons are the excitement and fun of the players.

When I present my players with a nigh impossible adversity, like 20 archers point blank readied to shoot when they move, I know they will give up their weapons, trusting in me not to kill them outright, even if they would roll a 1 on a Charisma check.

So yes, I think fudging sometimes in in order, warranted, perhaps even needed (see the example of the girlfriend above) - and it furthers the trust of the players.

Example: One of my favorite fights was against a gigantic stone golem. We had been fighting some rounds, and me and my squire were still unscathed, yet the other four party members were either dead or had had to flee.
In that round, we would have killed the golem; yet we were still unscathed, and the rest of the party was safe (or dead anyway). So suddenly, through some secret ability, the Golem regenerated 50 hit points. That meant another two rounds of tough combat for us, and the other players sat around full of excitement, and in the end by glorious tactics, we destroyed the golem and STILL were unharmed. To this day, the ENTIRE group tells this story with a shimmer in their eyes. We didn't get annoyed because of that regeneration trick; in fact, otherwise the fight would have been good, but not as great as it was now.

Berandor

Berandor