Dragonbane general thread

[Wolfpack48]

Ugh. In the middle of my first "But it's not D&D and my character is so weak" conversation with at least two players. Like, how are people surprised that Dragonbane is a lower power level than D&D5E? Do they literally go in blind? Come on guys, at least read the free Quickstart before agreeing to play.

Curious. What’s the age range of the players?

if you can reward them for doing a modicum of planning, using pushes and Heroic Abilities, it may take hold. Anything above just dumb rushing the enemies. You might actually need to coach them through a few combats before they start to grok.

 

[Von Ether]

If only.

"This game sucks! These characters suck! Why would I want to play a game where a goblin can one-shot me?"

I dunno. Maybe because easily winning all the time is duller than watching paint dry.

I agree it can be - but for some gamers they want the easy win, mostly because life doesn't hand those out very often. Gaming for them is a sanctuary, not a contest.

I have players loving DB because nothing is predictable and yet I have one player now being super cautions and want to get as much perfect information he can get before making a decision because he was used the safety rails in 5e. Fortunately he is still game to game with our group.

 

[Aldarc]

If only.

"This game sucks! These characters suck! Why would I want to play a game where a goblin can one-shot me?"

I dunno. Maybe because easily winning all the time is duller than watching paint dry.

Your answer may be true, but I'm not sure if that would win them over. I would probably express what you like about the system and game. Why does it excite you? Why does this game appeal to you as a GM and/or a player? What does it do well?

 

[Wolfpack48]

I agree it can be - but for some gamers they want the easy win, mostly because life doesn't hand those out very often. Gaming for them is a sanctuary, not a contest.

I have players loving DB because nothing is predictable and yet I have one player now being super cautions and want to get as much perfect information he can get before making a decision because he was used the safety rails in 5e. Fortunately he is still game to game with our group.

We think of gaming as a sanctuary too but I guess we enjoy the stimulation of figuring out a puzzle or a combat in the face of possibly dying. Challenge that has real consequences seems so much more lively than rftlpwning stuff.

 

[overgeeked]

In contrast our past Basic Fantasy game we lost six of 11 and almost lost everyone. A couple mid level PCs too.

We all had a blast even as we mourned the dead.

I did try really really hard to keep people alive but there is only so much a single cleric can do.

Yeah. I have an absolute blast in those situations. That's what I love about gaming, really.

Pretty sure a goblin can one shot a 1st level 5e character. They sure could in 1e.

But only a 1st-level character. Maybe a 2nd. After that, not so much.

With Dragonbane, there's basically nothing you can do to prevent it. Unless you dump stacks of heroic abilities into +2 hp each.

I agree it can be - but for some gamers they want the easy win, mostly because life doesn't hand those out very often. Gaming for them is a sanctuary, not a contest.

I have players loving DB because nothing is predictable and yet I have one player now being super cautions and want to get as much perfect information he can get before making a decision because he was used the safety rails in 5e. Fortunately he is still game to game with our group.

It's not a contest for me either. I also treat gaming as a sanctuary and an escape. I just find easy wins are boring and want some challenge to the game. A PC dies, laugh it off, and roll up a new one. That's the game.

Your answer may be true, but I'm not sure if that would win them over. I would probably express what you like about the system and game. Why does it excite you? Why does this game appeal to you as a GM and/or a player? What does it do well?

That quote was in direct response to me explaining what I liked about the game, the lower power levels, the deadliness, the old-school style, and some modern mechanics. The responses was basically, "This isn't 5E, therefore this sucks." Sigh.

Oh well. There will be other players. It's just frustrating.

 

[Wolfpack48]

Yeah. I have an absolute blast in those situations. That's what I love about gaming, really.

But only a 1st-level character. Maybe a 2nd. After that, not so much.

With Dragonbane, there's basically nothing you can do to prevent it. Unless you dump stacks of heroic abilities into +2 hp each.

It's not a contest for me either. I also treat gaming as a sanctuary and an escape. I just find easy wins are boring and want some challenge to the game. A PC dies, laugh it off, and roll up a new one. That's the game.

That quote was in direct response to me explaining what I liked about the game, the lower power levels, the deadliness, the old-school style, and some modern mechanics. The responses was basically, "This isn't 5E, therefore this sucks." Sigh.

Oh well. There will be other players. It's just frustrating.

I almost think the first question to any new player should be “do you really want to be playing 5e?” And if the answer is yes, hard pass. Look for players looking for a change away from D&D.

Or maybe. the better question would be “how important is it to be OP as a character?”

 

[Sir Brennen]

So now that I have run a few sessions, I’m considering making a change

One thing that my group is having a bit of a problem adjusting to is the either/or nature of action and defense. I’ve seen the suggestion to allow all characters to choose to begin with either the Defense or the Fast Footwork Heroic Abilities for free.

Anyone else try this, or have thoughts on it? Or can comment on how these HAs gained through normal play have affected combats?

 

[Wolfpack48]

So now that I have run a few sessions, I’m considering making a change

One thing that my group is having a bit of a problem adjusting to is the either/or nature of action and defense. I’ve seen the suggestion to allow all characters to choose to begin with either the Defense or the Fast Footwork Heroic Abilities for free.

Anyone else try this, or have thoughts on it? Or can comment on how these HAs gained through normal play have affected combats?

I gave each character one free extra HA and one chose Fast Footwork. Also allowed one trained skill to be 15 if all skills were less than 15. Real test will be Sunday when we get into some serious combat. Players have been getting used to the offensive/defensive choice and so far they are doing ok. These are old BRP players though so they know the score.

One thing I am debating is tweaking up the starting HP but we’ll see how Sunday goes before making any changes.

 

[overgeeked]

Anyone else try this, or have thoughts on it? Or can comment on how these HAs gained through normal play have affected combats?

It slows things down. At first blush it doesn’t seem like it would, but it does. It gives the PCs extra actions during a round and obvious places to dump WP. This makes combat take a bit longer and pushes things towards more rests between fights. A round rest gives you WP, but only once per shift. A stretch rest gives you WP, but only once per shift. Along with mages burning through WP and pushing for more rests this can snowball.

Some players picking either during normal advancement, sure. Giving everyone one or the other free at the start, no.

 

[Aldarc]

That quote was in direct response to me explaining what I liked about the game, the lower power levels, the deadliness, the old-school style, and some modern mechanics. The responses was basically, "This isn't 5E, therefore this sucks." Sigh.

Oh well. There will be other players. It's just frustrating.

I will talk about what I like about the game, and maybe this will help you articulate some of these ideas to your potential players.

I will admit that the "deadliness" isn't really a factor in my attitude towards the game. If the game was less deadly, would I still like it? Probably. However, what I genuinely like is the flatter power curve, the lack of character levels, the lack of "builds," its roll-under-skill system, and the quick dynamic combat.

Also, one of the big appeals is that it feels vaguely OSR while also feeling like a modern game. I do like and still play OSR games, but I also don't necessarily want to play a bunch of similar games that are all trying to be B/X or B/X compatible. Dragonbane is certainly trying to be "old school" but for Drakar och Demoner and not D&D. This helps Dragonbane stick out for me.

The flatter power curve of DB keeps NPCs and monsters relevant for far longer in a campaign than in 5e D&D, despite being designed for bounded accuracy. However, I personally found that the steep power curve of 5e D&D in terms of PC abilities, magic, levels, builds, and HP bloat tends to negate, if not outweigh, the plusses of its bounded accuracy. This may even be why so many 5e campaigns fizzle out before 10th level. The players have what they want* as their PC builds are starting to come online and the GM is sometimes struggling to keep things interesting. This is to say that I prefer DB's approach to "bounded accuracy." Threats stay relevant longer. Published adventures can be used and reused at different points in the game without worrying as much about the level range.

* "In this world there are only two tragedies: One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it."

Moreover, the flatter power curve of DB also makes it easier to introduce new players and characters into the game. The power disparity between a DB character after 5-10 sessions will generally not be as big as it would be in 5e D&D.

How DB creates this flatter power curve is also why I like this game. There are no classes. There are no levels. There are not really any builds to speak of. PCs still have "powers" they can use in the form of Heroic Abilities. This makes this game so much quicker and easier to learn and play as both a GM and a player.

Edit: I also love that Dragonbane seems to be one of the few major skill-based games out there that doesn't slavishly worship at the altar of Simulationism.