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Dragonborn in Faerun

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
One of the books explicitly states that they rarely work for evil organizations, even as mercs.

Ok, but what book? I searched through them and while there seems to be a lot of folks that day the books say they are common among the Realms and that they rarely work for evil organizations, I have yet to find Realms sources that support this.

It may be mentioned in the PHB, or in the Dragon article, but those are not Realms specific. The Realms material takes precedence, and they are specifically called out in two sections of the 4th Ed campaign setting as dragonborn commonly being members, and the Cult of the Dragon being one of the three main power groups within Tymanther itself.

I provided direct quotes from the sourcebooks.

Ilbranteloth
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Ok, but what book? I searched through them and while there seems to be a lot of folks that day the books say they are common among the Realms and that they rarely work for evil organizations, I have yet to find Realms sources that support this.

It may be mentioned in the PHB, or in the Dragon article, but those are not Realms specific. The Realms material takes precedence, and they are specifically called out in two sections of the 4th Ed campaign setting as dragonborn commonly being members, and the Cult of the Dragon being one of the three main power groups within Tymanther itself.

I provided direct quotes from the sourcebooks.

Ilbranteloth

Yeah, I'm not going to dig through a pile of books to find you a quote. You seem to enjoy doing that, and that is great, but I am not invested enough in this to do that. I'm 90% sure it has already been sourced in this thread by someone else, anyway.

All of which is tangential. You aren't going to stop thinking DB are basically a weird monster alien race that most people are going to mistake for lizard men or associate with evil cults, and everyone is not going to stop rolling their eyes at that idea.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Yeah, I'm not going to dig through a pile of books to find you a quote. You seem to enjoy doing that, and that is great, but I am not invested enough in this to do that. I'm 90% sure it has already been sourced in this thread by someone else, anyway.

All of which is tangential. You aren't going to stop thinking DB are basically a weird monster alien race that most people are going to mistake for lizard men or associate with evil cults, and everyone is not going to stop rolling their eyes at that idea.

Well, OK. You were the one that called me out asking why I believed that when the books say otherwise.

I had already gone through the books and posted all of the relevant quotes for and against the concept of them being common, how others would react, and what alliances they have. I did that specifically because I had said a few things and thought that it would probably be better if I went to the source to verify it before I said anymore.

The only line I can find in any Realms sourcebook is one comment in the 4th Ed Player's Guide for FR regarding their point of view towards the Gods. At the end it says "Although few dragonborn have found themselves in the service of traditionally wicked institutions, they cannot share the tenets and beliefs of the organizations they serve."

That might be the one you were thinking about. Since there are other passages that specifically state the they are "also common (among the Cult of the Dragon), their militaristic ideals complementing the cult's ideology," along with there being an actual power group in Tymanther, I'd say that's pretty clear that they are plenty of dragonborn allied with the Cult.

You're right about the current state of my Realms in that the dragonborn, if I retain the Tymanther story-line at all, are still rare, and working through a phase where they do encounter problems out in the world beyond Tymanther. I suspect that this will be where I end up going, largely because I continue to hear great things about Erin's books, and I'd like to be able to retain them to some degree. I'll probably have to pick them up to read them too.

As for 'everyone rolling their eyes at it' - whatever, dude. I know there are a lot of people that really can't stand the direction things went with the Spellplague, etc. I don't offer any ill-will or eye-rolling to anybody who wants to run their Realms differently than mine. I encourage it. I find that the folks that come to the Realms from the 4th edition or video games are used to a much more cosmopolitan and fantastic world. Great for them. Many of the folks that have been playing in the Realms as long as I have feel that the changes that have been thrust upon the world change the feel too significantly. And there are lots of people that don't fall into either of those two categories. And 'everyone' is a lot of people.

I'm simply answering questions as to why I've set it up the way I have, and why I feel it's the right direction for my campaign. If I came across differently, that's my fault and I need to work on it. I find it interesting to hear what others have done, and I also really enjoy the questions and challenges that others present to me, because it forces me to think through things I might not have thought of. And that, along with digging into what little lore there is, is largely why I'll probably retain the little bit of Tymanther that's left. Not sure if, or when, I'd welcome dragonborn PCs in this campaign, but that's always dependent upon what the player comes up with for reasoning, background, and their plans on playing the character anyway.

I do find it interesting that the top selling Forgotten Realms Supplement on Amazon list of Best Selling D&D books after the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms (#30) , followed by the several 3rd Edition books (Waterdeep, Cormyr, etc.) 3rd Edition [Campaign Setting (#73), then the Neverwinter Campaign Setting (#76), with the 4th Ed Player's Guide (#222) and Campaign Setting (#750) well behind. Along with the changes that have occurred during the Sundering and in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that the sales of that book was a strong indication that folks wanted to see the Realms go back to its roots. What exactly that entails is up to each particular campaign. I suspect that the Neverwinter setting is popular as a crossover from video games. I realize that none of this proves anything, and it's really not intended to.

But for a book that was published 4 years ago that doesn't include any game mechanics or rules - it's nothing but lore - to hold a spot that high is interesting. And I suspect it's high sales (combined with other book sales, surveys, and the 5th Ed playtesting) helped develop the direction they felt the Realms should take in the 5th edition.

And I should also point out that I personally am glad they didn't just do a straight retcon and totally eliminate the Spellplague, Returned Abeir, etc. I get a feeling I'm in a minority here as well, but I think it was very smart to allow the people that liked the 4th Edition world and all it entailed to not be abandoned, so they can continue in the direction their Realms is growing. It's tricky to validate such diverse viewpoints and approaches as valid, and while I'm not entirely sure how well they succeeded, I respect the attempt.

Ilbranteloth
 

KahlessNestor

Adventurer
I think that, whatever the source books migjt say about the relative rarity of dragonborn, that was never the way they were presented in any adventures written for 4e or 5e, and I think that's what really matters. They're common enough that the quest givers don't even pay them any mind. There's no adventure notes that say "If a dragonborn or teifling is in the party. .." Part of that is just the way adventures are written, but it also leads to player expectations of the world they exist within. No one ever bats an eye when a dragonborn walks into a tavern, so if you run into it, it becomes something of a big deal.
 

Hussar

Legend
How is the best selling Realms books all being from 3e "going back to its roots"? 3e made some very deep changes to the Realms. Particularly moving it away from trad fantasy and into having a bajillion PC races and very much embracing changes made in 2e.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
3E added Thrii-Kreen to the realms

I mean, don't get me wrong, I am a Kreen fan through and through and gladly take the opportunity to play everyone's favourite mantis-people, but 3E was sort of the edition where they decided "Well, we need a setting where we can shove everything" and FR became it

Dragonborn are fine in cities when you consider what they're not. Which is any of the very present other 1,001 threats your average village might face

(I think I once had a sorcerer character in NWN who's entire backstory was that their parents were semi-famous adventurers due to defeating a bloody Pyroclastic dragon who someone found its way into FR. They also managed to blind a Drow by casting Light on their raven because it was 3 AM and they were a bit tired with squinting)
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
How is the best selling Realms books all being from 3e "going back to its roots"? 3e made some very deep changes to the Realms. Particularly moving it away from trad fantasy and into having a bajillion PC races and very much embracing changes made in 2e.

Well, Ed's book is not from 3rd edition, it's really a throwback to 1st edition since that's the Realms that is closest to his own. In addition, the 1st and 2nd edition books are not as readily available, combined with the popularity of the 3rd edition rules. I just found it interesting.

While there are a lot more playable races in the 3rd edition, the sourcebooks themselves don't give any impression that those races are common. Planetouched, while pictured as more exotic, are nevertheless described as appearing primarily as human, and the concept of planetouched works really well with the Realms cosmology. The 2nd Edition was still made with a lot of Ed's involvement as well. So while he didn't embrace all of the changes in his campaign, the general feel was fairly consistent with the 1st edition.

Otherwise, the majority of the races in the actual Realms supplements are just existing monster races, now playable. In some areas that works very well. For example, if you wanted to run a native campaign in the Underdark, then you'd have a party of races native to the Underdark. Coming up with reasons for multiple races to work together, along with the interesting role-playing opportunities such an unlikely alliance would present would be quite cool. Taking that same party to the surface and expecting the general population to ignore that it's a group of "monsters" is a whole different thing.

But while gnolls are common in Thay, for example, and creating a gnoll character would work there, they also don't receive a warm treatment even in their homeland.

The pattern for 3rd edition releases was to include new races, (prestige) classes, spells, magic items, and/or monsters in every supplement. However, once you got into the lore portion of those books, the new races and such were almost entirely ignored. Gnolls are mentioned a number of times, but as monsters, or fighters and guards hired by the Thayans. Other races, such as the Taer and Volodni exist only in their specific regions, and if one of them were seen outside of those, PC or otherwise, people would treat them differently. Aside from the fact that it would be very, very rare, as in mostly never. It specifically says, for example, that they are "isolated in the remoter portions of the region or found only here."

So yes, they are available as playable races, but they are presented in a way that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the Realms. Individual campaigns, of course, could go whatever direction they wanted. And whether something is very rare, or even nearly unique, once you put it in as an option (and this includes the video games), they start to feel common. The natural assumption being that they are everywhere.

3E added Thrii-Kreen to the realms

I mean, don't get me wrong, I am a Kreen fan through and through and gladly take the opportunity to play everyone's favourite mantis-people, but 3E was sort of the edition where they decided "Well, we need a setting where we can shove everything" and FR became it

Dragonborn are fine in cities when you consider what they're not. Which is any of the very present other 1,001 threats your average village might face

(I think I once had a sorcerer character in NWN who's entire backstory was that their parents were semi-famous adventurers due to defeating a bloody Pyroclastic dragon who someone found its way into FR. They also managed to blind a Drow by casting Light on their raven because it was 3 AM and they were a bit tired with squinting)

Actually, Thri-Kreen have been mentioned as monsters in the south, the Shining Plains and Shaar since the 2nd Edition Campaign Setting. There is also note in that set of thri-kreen being among the monsters of the Mindulgulph Mercenary Company of Priapurl. They also include wemics, beholders, and other monsters.

With the Shining South, they introduced them as playable races. This followed suit with the general approach to make as many playable races as possible. But they are indicates as "reclusive and alien, even to those that share the plains with them." I like that they have unusual monsters and races in the Shaar and the south, it should feel like a foreign land in nearly every way. But I also think that those monsters and races are limited by culture and biology. Loxo are the same way.

I don't see any reason to turn either of them into playable races, really. The loxo, for example, are shown is standard D&D-era clothing with a dagger, and the thri-kreen have specialized weapons, one of which appears to be forged metal (presumably steel), the other crystalline. The thri-kreen is also wearing a skirt (Kilt? Loincloth?) when it doesn't really require anything of the sort.

Now, as other alien races you could argue that they brought the technologies of mining, metallurgy, smithing, etc., with them. Except that the rest of their culture in the Realms doesn't seem to support that. You could argue that they trade with others (and it does state the the loxo do), but again, for what? Some people might like things that look 'exotic' so trinkets and art. But I would think that as nomadic hunters on the great plains of the Shaar that they would have all crystalline, stone, or bone weapons.

More importantly, the thri-kreen are described as having "no solid personalities as humans would define them. Unpredictable in everything they do, thri-kreen do not evidence much emotion in their behavioral patterns...the focus of the thri-kreen is always on survival, and they respect only prowess and strength," and they "neither seek nor shun contact with other races. They simply exist with other species and share territory so long as others do not begin to over hunt an area or waste precious resources." and "Lacking any sense of honor or loyalty, thri-kreen are a hard species with which to negotiate."

The loxo are a little better, essentially a 'primitive' culture of peaceful creatures that are only aggressive in self defense. It says they occasionally come to cities to trade their "rustic works of art" but I'm not sure what they would be trading for. I don't see them as a race that would use money, nor be trained in the use of weapons.

They try to give both of them a reason to be an adventurer, but they really don't make good PC races unless you ignore how alien they are, and play them as mostly human in a monster skin.

So I love that they exist where they do, as monsters. It makes sense. They won't be wandering around many cities, although I could see the thri-kreen being used as a sort of intelligent pet, and that's how I'd probably approach the one in the Mindulgulph Mercenary Company.

I've already covered in great detail why I think that dragonborn would be viewed in a worse light than simply being "one of the 1,001 threats they're not." But the way that exotic races were introduced in the 2nd and 3rd edition, as rare creatures from a specific region, and some with quite unique treatments in regards to personalities, culture, and their relationships with the civilized cultures of the Realms is much better thought out and presented than the minimal treatment that the dragonborn received.

On the other hand, it's not surprising because in the 4th Ed, races and classes were for the most part the driving forces of the game, not the settings and lore. Throw in the video games in which not only are there lots of playable races, but that they are presented visually, and it's easy to see that the focus was/is very, very different.

For those of us that started prior 1st edition, the "proper" way to roll a character was at the table. You rolled your stats, in order, using only 3d6. Because of race and class requirements, your abilities limited the options for selecting either. By the 1st Ed DMG (and several Dragon articles if I recall), other methods were used, but most everybody I've ever met used the 4d6 minus the lowest, arrange as you desire method so you had some control in choosing your class. The ability requirements, plus race level limitations, had a direct effect on how common a given race or class was in the game itself. Which meant the game as a whole had a feel that reflected how common those races and classes were in the setting. Paladins required a STR 12, INT and CON of 9, WIS 13, and CHA 17. Characters with high abilities also gained a +10% XP bonus, and for a paladin that meant a STR and WIS of 15. Imagine before the publication of the DMG and the alternate methods to generate ability scores how common paladins were in our games when you had to roll those stats, using 3d6. In order. Paladins were very, very rare.

Then there were racial restrictions. Humans could reach any level in any class. Elves could be fighters (max 7th level, 6th if 16 or lower STR), magic-users (11 with 18 INT, 10 with 17, 9 if lower), thiefs (unlimited), or assassins (10th level). PC clerics could only be half-elven (5th level), half-orc (4th level) or human.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any of this makes sense. I'm only pointing out that the game design itself has an impact on the perception of the players. Release 100+ races, and the idea that the people of the world are used to seeing exotic races becomes the 'normal' that the players expect. Forgotten Realms was 'normal' in the sense that the (A)D&D standard at the time was what set normal. As the 2nd and 3rd editions came out, the lore was largely maintained, despite the game system itself changing the concept of 'normal.' At the same time the Forgotten Realms was becoming the default setting where anything published would 'fit' and be allowed (although in a more regional and segregated manner than is thought today), they released the Dark Sun campaign where 'normal' was very specifically defined. That narrow (and unique) definition is what makes a game set in Athas instantly recognizable.

The Realms used to be more like that. And to a large degree, the lore through the 3rd edition maintained that. The exotic stuff was relegated to certain parts of the world. Kara-Tur existed, but was entirely separate. A character from Kara-Tur was a rare site in Faerun, most likely didn't speak the language, and didn't 'fit in.' They fit in with a motley band of adventurers, but once they got to town, not so much.

The 5th edition lore so far leaves open the possibility for a more exotic Realms, if that's what you like. But most of it looks back to the earlier editions. That's not entirely unexpected, because in each edition there has been a lot of material that has simply been reprinted from the 1st edition. So it also makes it easy to maintain the same feel as the earlier editions, wherever you fall on that continuum.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I think that, whatever the source books migjt say about the relative rarity of dragonborn, that was never the way they were presented in any adventures written for 4e or 5e, and I think that's what really matters. They're common enough that the quest givers don't even pay them any mind. There's no adventure notes that say "If a dragonborn or teifling is in the party. .." Part of that is just the way adventures are written, but it also leads to player expectations of the world they exist within. No one ever bats an eye when a dragonborn walks into a tavern, so if you run into it, it becomes something of a big deal.

Well, the only time there would be a note on how to handle characters of any race is if there was an exception to the default., or if there's a specific scenario where the reaction is important and shouldn't change regardless of the default in the campaign.

The default is what's published in the source books, as interpreted and presented by the DM. So I wouldn't expect an adventure to say anything about how common a race is or isn't or what the reaction of others would be unless it differs from what's published in the source book.

Which means, if it doesn't matter in your campaign, then it doesn't matter here. If it does matter in your campaign, then it matters here as well.

Ilbranteloth
 



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