DragonHide Armor, what the *&$%!!?

[RedSwan78]

Thanks for letting it stay as long as it did P-kitty I *did* get the "rules" answer that I was seeking, and from there it moved into House Rules. hehe

Steveerooo, did you look on the size comparisson chart on page 131 in the PHB? That's where I just think that you can definately get more then one set of full plate from a Colossal Dragon from.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Maybe I just don't have a good conception of what "Gargantuan" means.

80 feet long, according to the PHB. To me, that implies a decent number of scales that work for this. Besides, do you REALLY have to have two intact scales for the front/back? Couldn't the back be two slightly smaller scales fitted together?

Anyway, since we're now in the House Rules forum, here's what we've come up with for my campaign. It's a bit long, but I could use some feedback.

All creatures, when killed, can be harvested for Chitin/Scales (which can be used for plate-type armors, including Scale Mail) and/or Hide (used for leather-type armors). The exact amount depends on how big and how tough the creature is. Each creature gives a number of "points" of material equal to its HD plus its Natural Armor. (They should be something other than "points", but I'm still working out the math on weights; "stone" probably would work.)

Basically, all creatures fall into three categories:

Exoskeletal (Insects, Arthropods, Arachnids): NA+HD points of Chitin. Example: an Ankheg has 9 NA and 3 HD, so killing one gives 12 points of Chitin.
Chitin is used for plate-type armors, but usually comes in one large piece, so it's never a problem finding pieces of the right size or shape.

Soft (Mammals, Birds, Amphibians, Fish): NA+HD points of Hide. Example: a Bison has 4 NA and 5 HD, so killing one gives 9 points of Hide.

Scaled (Most reptiles, including Dragons): NA points of Scales, HD points of Hide. Example: an Ancient Red Dragon has 34 HD and 33 NA, so killing one gives 34 points of Hide and 33 of Scales.
Scales, unlike Chitin, are a bit more limited in size and shape. Armors requiring intact plates (Breastplate, Half-Plate, Full Plate) require the creature to be at least three sizes larger than the person the armor will fit.

Now, you want to know what you can make from it. Every armor requires (AC+2) points, times a size multiplier: Small is x1, Medium is x2, Large is x4 (and my house-ruled Half-Ogre is x3).
Bucklers are 1xSize, Small Shields are 2xSize, Large Shields are 4xSize, Tower Shields are 6xSize.

So, a Medium Breastplate is 14 points. Medium Full Plate is 20. And so on.

The DM could tweak the numbers a bit based on how the monster was killed. If you dumped a cow in acid, the amount of usable leather will be much smaller than if you cleanly decapitate it. The amounts given above are more of a best-case thing.

 

[IndyPendant]

Guys, you're forgetting the (most likely) reason why this rule was put in: if you scale the armour a Colossal Dragon could provide to the proportion a cow could provide, and then gave that armour bonuses that I agree *should* reflect the fact that it came from a *Dragon* (with a capital 'D')--then if you manage to kill a Colossal Dragon, you've just outfitted a small platoon with superhuman armour.

Thing is, Dragons in 3e are rather underpowered, considering they're in theory next to the Gods. In my campaigns, I've boosted the power level of Dragons so that 4th-level or so parties would have severe trouble with a single Hatchling.

That way, I can give Dragon armour nifty bonuses, and basically ignore the 4-sizes-larger rule, since by the time it would be needed, the party would be of a high enough level that the armour is reasonable.

Not to mention: evil Dragons are vitally, vitally intelligent, and very, very evil. Wearing Dragonhide is essentially an open invitation to attack--and who says Dragons have to take a personal hand in assaults on the party? Assassins can be just as effective, and no Dragon wants the reputation of their vast, almost infinite power weakened...

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'm not "forgetting" it, as such, I'm just trying to make it irrelevant. Let's see if I can explain it a bit better.

Right now, practically all armor and weaponry are made of mundane materials, and then enhanced with magic. There's really no variation in materials or craftsmanship; with only one level of Masterwork and piddly bonuses that often don't stack with magical enhancement, you can see why. Other than the ubiquitous Mithril Breastplate, I almost never see any exotic materials used.

That's where the system I mentioned earlier comes in. If the entire world is filled with dozens of varieties of metals, crystals, leathers, etc. that can all be turned into armor and weaponry, with nonmagical bonuses that DO stack with magic, balance is maintained and you solve this rarity problem at the same time.

Dragonscale armor SHOULD be powerful, but it also shouldn't require a ridiculous rule fudge just to keep it out of circulation. Part of the problem is that there's no stepping stone in between. You jump right from low-quality steel to dragonscale with nothing in between. If there's only that one big jump, and all you need to do is kill a dragon, then all the munchkins out there will go dragon hunting solely for the new armor.
But, what if there were other materials? What if you went from a steel breastplate to mithril to gartine to adamantine to dragonscale? If I have an Adamantine breastplate, all enchanted up nicely, do I really NEED to go out of my way to kill a Dragon for some new armor? Is it worth it if I have to sell my old stuff at half value?

Don't say "you'll loot it to sell it", either. Doesn't work that way in practice. Given the numbers I gave above, where that Ancient Red Dragon dropped enough hide and scales to equip 4-5 people, the total value was still only around 20,000 gp (remember, you're only getting the raw materials, which are only 1/3 of the price; the rest is labor), for a CR 22 dragon... when EL 20 encounters pay on average 80k and dragons have double treasure. The profit made from armor material is a drop in the bucket.

As for making dragons non-disposable, I think the key is to play them as if they had the INT the books give them (i.e., smarter than the party) and have them know when to run away. If a dragon is overmatched, he'll know it, and he should try escaping before he's down to single-digit HPs. Oh, and raise their DEX by 8 and give them Combat Reflexes at the cost of some STR and CON. Trust me, it works wonders.

 

[kreynolds]

For anyone that's interested, here are my house rules for dragonhide.

 

[seasong]

Well, I came in a bit late - kreynolds' rules look better suited to most campaigns than mine . But, just for completeness, I've attached 'em.

Dragon armors are included in the section below the first chart.

"Days" is the days it takes a crafter to make them; labor cost is based on the number of days and "how skilled" the crafter needs to be (roughly 1 sp per day per level).

"Base" is the materials cost. For dragon armors, this is roughly what a party of adventurers could expect to sell the unfinished hide for, based on how difficult the dragon is to kill and how useful it is.

"D&D Cost" is Base + Labor, rounded off a bit for cleanliness.

Unfortunately, these rules mostly rewrite the armor weights and costs from the PHB to be more in line with the materials, labor, and a few historical weight references. So it's not as useful for standard campaigns. It does however, do a good job of accounting for the incredible sum of money the adventurers would save by killing the dragon themselves - compared to the cost for acquiring Great Wyrm hide, the cost to make armor out of it is negligible.

 

[Wolf72]

and one more!

... house ruled dragon armor

 

[Wolv0rine]

For anyone that's interested, here are my house rules for dragonhide.

Just for fun I'll ask... you calling that OGC? ;P

 

[kreynolds]

Just for fun I'll ask... you calling that OGC? ;P

You wish.

 

[maddman75]

http://www.badaxegames.com

Wulf's Half Orc book has rules for creating armors from the hides of creatures, including dragons. They are a bit more useful than what was in the MM. Better protection and if appropriate Damage Resistance against certain elements.