Dragonlance Dragonlance cataclysm and a bit about Paladine

It is impossible to talk about Dragonlance in the way you and others want to without bringing this stuff in.
That can't be true... if it is it is ANOTHER reason to fix it. There should not be additional reading of non gaming books needed to understand the campaign world. No one should be forced to read or discuss religion of the real world just to understand the concepts of the game.

I am not engaging anymore in this crazy 'you need to understand this religion' talk. If you (and I don't mean Micha Sweet I mean a general you) can not make a coherent argument without reaching for a religiose book that has nothing to do with the game that says MORE about the issue then anything I can.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That can't be true... if it is it is ANOTHER reason to fix it. There should not be additional reading of non gaming books needed to understand the campaign world. No one should be forced to read or discuss religion of the real world just to understand the concepts of the game.
Well, that's cultural literacy for you. Sometimes it helps and is worthwhile to understand allusions and how things are sometimes written in parallel with elements from the culture around us. It's part of the richness of culture.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The deities of Krynn are "alien intelligences"? No. They've never been written that way. Deities in the real world have never been "written" that way either. The gods of the Real World are supernatural in nature, but very, very human in outlook and behavior. As are the gods of D&D.
Well, yeah, sort of. Except for the fact that they're immortal and have immense cosmic power. That's gonna have an effect. Why else would the gods of real world mythology behave the way they do with far more confidence, arrogance, and hubris even than real world people?
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
Well, yeah, sort of. Except for the fact that they're immortal and have immense cosmic power. That's gonna have an effect. Why else would the gods of real world mythology behave the way they do with far more confidence, arrogance, and hubris even than real world people?
~Looks aside at real world people~

Um...
 

My point is that just because the gods of Krynn have "xG" in their descriptions doesn't make them infallible. Rather than argue about whether they dropped a mountain of fire on Istar, we can discuss why they did and maybe learn something interesting, entertaining and even useful (in play) about the gods.
This is what I find most appealing in these settings - like the Wall of the Faithless and many other things which I wont mention so as not to derail the thread. These imperfections allow for greater story-telling. I personally find the challenge interesting of trying to make sense of these grey areas. I do not want clean settings, I want the warts, give me that which horrifies the modern man. I will find a way to make it work.

EDIT: I did like the addition of the gods attempting a series of things (rather than just Lord Soth) to try avoid the Cataclysm. I just had a thought, you know what would be great for a DL campaign - the time leading up to the Cataclysm. You could play it like Call of Cthulu i.e. trying to stop the inevitable or you could be more adventurous and take it in the complete opposite direction.
 
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Hussar

Legend
You know, maybe we need a dedicated Dragonlance philosophy debate thread? Especially with the book having its general release next week, I'd rather not see every thread concerning it getting cluttered up with the same, repetitive conversation....
Well, hey, it almost took two pages to get going, so, there's some improvement at least.
 

Well, that's cultural literacy for you. Sometimes it helps and is worthwhile to understand allusions and how things are sometimes written in parallel with elements from the culture around us. It's part of the richness of culture.
and that's great for a novel or TV show... it falls apart for a game . Italso means that the modern cultural around us that says you cant blow up a city or country to stop a bad leader comes into play.
or is your argument to cherry pick WHAT culture matters?
 



I've never read a detailed on the ground examination of what life in Istar looked like (it may have been written, but I've only looked at the overviews of some gaming sources), but I make some assumptions that are probably at least subtle changes from original intent, and it makes it work out all right.

1. The Kingpriest and his thought control regime was evil, hiding behind a facade of good. What once actually was a good society had become corrupted to evil.

2. From a cosmological standpoint, the society's crimes were at least twofold: pushing evil out of balance into extreme prominence, and compromising freedom of moral choice--both big cosmological crimes in Krynn.

3. It wasn't just the Kingpriest; most of his people had been corrupted at this point (many opportunities to change having been offered is a good inclusion).

4. This situation was spreading and was powerful enough that it was (in the foresight of the gods) going to take over the world.

I kind of see that as all one thing, even though I parsed it out as four points. So the Cataclysm was invoked to preserve a cosmic balance that prevented worldwide loss of freedom of choice and domination of evil. The way the world would have looked for people living in it in a few years without the Cataclysm would have been worse than with it. And the final sub-point:

5. The Neutral gods (champions of balance and freedom of moral choice) were at least as much involved as the Good ones. The Good ones went along because they saw that the overall suffering would be worse without it, and because they recognized the value of the Neutral gods cosmological place.

That makes it work well enough for me. I'm not sure how much change that requires to the official take. I'd just say that the old official position was lies spread by the gods of Evil.
Except the chief God of Good said that the Kingpriest wasn't evil, and was in fact a good man. The problem with DL is that the core philosophy is "when you get too much good, it stops being good". The world NEEDS murder, genocide, and rape or Good doesn't feel Good. It's trying to utilize Moorcock's idea that too much Law or Chaos is bad for the world, and things are best in Balance- except Good and Evil don't work that way. If everyone followed The Golden Rule it wouldn't make the world a terrible place, as Paladine suggests. In Krynn there are no good Outer Planes apparently, just alternate hells.
 

Except the chief God of Good said that the Kingpriest wasn't evil, and was in fact a good man. The problem with DL is that the core philosophy is "when you get too much good, it stops being good". The world NEEDS murder, genocide, and rape or Good doesn't feel Good. It's trying to utilize Moorcock's idea that too much Law or Chaos is bad for the world, and things are best in Balance- except Good and Evil don't work that way. If everyone followed The Golden Rule it wouldn't make the world a terrible place, as Paladine suggests. In Krynn there are no good Outer Planes apparently, just alternate hells.
That is the thing... the idea of needing a balance only works if that is the only way to prevent full evil. That only works if the good gods are pure good (for the most part) and the balance is them doing there best...

Can you imagine a 'god of good' that advacates as you say:
The world NEEDS murder, genocide, and rape or Good doesn't feel Good. It's trying to utilize Moorcock's idea that too much Law or Chaos is bad for the world,
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Except the chief God of Good said that the Kingpriest wasn't evil, and was in fact a good man.
Then why did the gods feel the need to throw rocks at him? No need to answer that question.

The fundamental problem is that D&D world are a pastiche of stereotypes and tropes thrown together as a backdrop to play a game against.

The problem with DL is that the core philosophy is "when you get too much good, it stops being good". The world NEEDS murder, genocide, and rape or Good doesn't feel Good. It's trying to utilize Moorcock's idea that too much Law or Chaos is bad for the world, and things are best in Balance- except Good and Evil don't work that way. If everyone followed The Golden Rule it wouldn't make the world a terrible place, as Paladine suggests. In Krynn there are no good Outer Planes apparently, just alternate hells.
Completely agree and it gets exposed when you graft something like the biblical flood onto it. The flood is predicated on the premise that God is the righteous Judge. That He has the legitimate authority to mete out justice to humanity.
That is a much harder premise to swallow when it is not a righteous judge but a collection of gods, that are neither omniscient nor omnipresent and some of which are explicitly evil and the whole thing is carried out to preserve some cosmic seesaw of good versus evil.

This is my big issue with the Good and Evil alignments in D&D, it is not thematically thought out it is a fairly mindless extrapolation of the Law-Chaos axis. I have no issue with Law - Neutrality- Chaos.

It can have some rp merit when applied to individuals in a setting but makes no sense when aggregated over a whole population or society.
 



maybe if you see it come up time and time again you might consider there is a portion of the base that actually believes it.
maybe if you see it come up time and time again you might consider there is a portion of the base that actually believes it.
"One True Way."
as apposed to YOUR one true way...
Not in the least. I just know LE when I see it. ;)
It's a logical fallacy to assume that because someone supports a position that they are automatically discounting the value of other positions.
again... the only quote though was
as apposed to YOUR one true way...

when this started with MIGHT consider there is a PORTION of the base that actually believes it
 




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