Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

And you're trying to use outside knowledge to assign an alignment to them. This is just going to be one of those occasions where we have to agree to disagree, I clearly think you're wrong in assigning them as bound for the Abyss, you're assuming that because they share a name that they are.
Outside knowledge... of the DMG? SCAG also mentions spirit naga (and many other creatures) in passing, with no description. So, are spirit nagas (and other creatures) not what we'd expect of such a creature of the same name in the MM because they don't explicitly say that they're the same?
 

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I have found in reddit something about a possible retcon. I wonder about some possible link with this thread.


The Afterlife (p. 20). In the second paragraph, the last sentence has been deleted.

"The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself."
 

I have found in reddit something about a possible retcon. I wonder about some possible link with this thread.


The Afterlife (p. 20). In the second paragraph, the last sentence has been deleted.

"The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself."
Yes, I reported that in this thread on Tuesday, and there has been some discussion of it here already.

I suspect you're right that this thread (or more likely the previous, similar thread on this topic on EN World) had something to do with the decision.

Or possibly WotC's sensitivity readers—who I would bet have been tasked with making an extensive, nothing-off-limits overhaul to D&D canon and mechanics—independently reached the same anti-Wall conclusions that have been expressed by some on this forum.

I'm on record liking the Wall, and have built my current character partly around his belief in it. (He believes his dead wife's soul wound up there.) But I fully understand and respect why others don't like it. They're in very good company: Ed Greenwood doesn't like it either, apparently, and has said that he treats it as a boogeyman story rather than a cosmic fact.

Incidentally, the upcoming new Drizzt trilogy appears set to make changes to Forgotten Realms canon regarding the afterlife (and also to the status of drow in "this" life). I expect the Wall will be demolished—or ignored—while a new afterlife-metaphysics status quo is instituted by that storyline. The blurb for the first novel mentions Drizzt going on a quest with ramifications for "the fate of all souls."
 
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If I wanted to run a “me adventurer tear down that wall” epic adventure what gods do you think would want to sponcer high level PCs going to destroy it!!!?
 

If I wanted to run a “me adventurer tear down that wall” epic adventure what gods do you think would want to sponcer high level PCs going to destroy it!!!?
It's not about destroying the wall, man . . . it's the system. Tear down that wall and big daddy K will just build it up again.

Your PCs need to work at tearing down the pantheon, including Ao! Down with the gods!
 


Yes, I reported that in this thread on Tuesday, and there has been some discussion of it here already.

I suspect you're right that this thread (or more likely the previous, similar thread on this topic on EN World) had something to do with the decision.

Or possibly WotC's sensitivity readers—who I would bet have been tasked with making an extensive, nothing-off-limits overhaul to D&D canon and mechanics—independently reached the same anti-Wall conclusions that have been expressed by some on this forum.

I'm on record liking the Wall, and have built my current character partly around his belief in it. (He believes his dead wife's soul wound up there.) But I fully understand and respect why others don't like it. They're in very good company: Ed Greenwood doesn't like it either, apparently, and has said that he treats it as a boogeyman story rather than a cosmic fact.

Incidentally, the upcoming new Drizzt trilogy appears set to make changes to Forgotten Realms canon regarding the afterlife (and also to the status of drow in "this" life). I expect the Wall will be demolished—or ignored—while a new afterlife-metaphysics status quo is instituted by that storyline. The blurb for the first novel mentions Drizzt going on a quest with ramifications for "the fate of all souls."

Bleah. It's not a bad idea by itself except Frizzy doing it.

Not that recent Drizzt books have been good anyway.
 

Because you are confusing war and opposition.

Bane orders his followers to tyranize a town, to subjugate the villagers to his worship. Tyr sends a few of his followers to defeat them, freeing the town who gratefully erect a shrine in Tyr's honor. In fact, one boy is so moved by his saviors that in ten years he becomes a paladin and goes out spreading the Faith of Tyr and converting more people.

The goal, over time, is to deny Bane worshippers and have Tyr gain more, thus strangling Bane's power and eventually defeating him.

They do not need to assault Bane directly in his home realm, because they can defeat him indirectly by weakening his presence on Faerun. In fact, this is the accepted competition between the gods.


But the Wall doesn't work this way. You can't "strangle" the Wall's existence, it has already existed past it's creator, and all it would take for the gods to stop more souls from going into it would be to... just agree to stop. To petition for its end, to oppose its use... and there is no Deity listed in all of the lore who opposed the Wall in general. Am I taking a lack of evidence to mean something? Yes. If they opposed the wall, I would expect to see evidence. If they did not oppose the wall, I would expect to see nothing. I see nothing, therefore them not opposing it makes more sense. Silence speaks volumes after all,.
And they oppose the wall on the mortail coil by making their worshippers go out and convert mortals, so that they can claim them.

Honestly, how is "worship the deities or be punished" different from "pay your taxes / obey your king or go to prision". It's a law imposed by those who have the power to do so. A king is even less superior to a peasant than a deity is.

Sure, a deity of chaos and freedom might have reason to oppose the wall (as she has reasons to oppose any law), but a deity who is "just LG" might not even see it as wrong. It's just one more law that you either obey or suffer the consequences.

Why should the afterlife be free of laws? D&D's afterlife isn't even an eternal reward/punishment. Even without a deity calling dips on a soul, a soul ends up on the plane that most strongly aligns with her, gets her memories stripped away immediately and over a few centuries gets everything else about her not yet fully aligning with the plane also stripped away and then finally merges with the plane and ceases to exist.
 

And they oppose the wall on the mortail coil by making their worshippers go out and convert mortals, so that they can claim them.

Honestly, how is "worship the deities or be punished" different from "pay your taxes / obey your king or go to prision". It's a law imposed by those who have the power to do so. A king is even less superior to a peasant than a deity is.

Sure, a deity of chaos and freedom might have reason to oppose the wall (as she has reasons to oppose any law), but a deity who is "just LG" might not even see it as wrong. It's just one more law that you either obey or suffer the consequences.

Why should the afterlife be free of laws? D&D's afterlife isn't even an eternal reward/punishment. Even without a deity calling dips on a soul, a soul ends up on the plane that most strongly aligns with her, gets her memories stripped away immediately and over a few centuries gets everything else about her not yet fully aligning with the plane also stripped away and then finally merges with the plane and ceases to exist.
Lawful Good deities oppose injustice, including unjust laws, so no.
 


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