Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

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If you think the thematic core of DL is the War of the Lance, then you’ve probably only ever read the first trilogy of novels.
Or you think that the thematic core of Dragonlance is the largest, most detailed, and most popular part.

By the same token I think the thematic core of Star Wars is to do with the OT and the Mandalorean is far more peripheral.
 

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Faolyn

(she/her)
I don't hate the thematic core... I hate some of the specific bits though.

1. I want the balance of good and evil to be something that either A) isn't as needed or B) makes more sense with 'too much good' actually being examples of good, not people who we are told are good but doing super evil things
As a possible example, in the webcomic Freefall, there is a conflict wherein one robot (fully aware AI, borderline Asimov's 3 rules-style) is advocating for the destruction of all AIs, because in his mind, having robots do all the labor means that humans would live in luxury and therefore their society would stagnate and thus suffer harm. At this point in the comic, robots are property and not considered to be truly sentient, so to this robot's mind, he isn't committing genocide. That, I think, is a good example of "too much good." At least according to that one robot.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
If you think the thematic core of DL is the War of the Lance, then you’ve probably only ever read the first trilogy of novels.

There is a lot more to DL than just LOL Dragon War pew pew pew. Again, you could stick that in any setting, like Faerun.
I have only read the first trilogy of novels. And Kaz the Minotaur. Didn't care for them. I have played in a lot of (ostensibly) Dragonlance games back in college, so like 20+ years ago. Honestly, all I can remember is that the party's kender was an expletive deleted. I read the core book at that time as well, and skimmed through other game books over the years.

I should not have to read the novels to play in the game, though. The rule books should be enough.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
If you think the thematic core of DL is the War of the Lance, then you’ve probably only ever read the first trilogy of novels.

There is a lot more to DL than just LOL Dragon War pew pew pew. Again, you could stick that in any setting, like Faerun.

Technically true but diminishing returns apply. They've blown the the world to many times.
 



Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
By the same token I think the thematic core of Star Wars is to do with the OT and the Mandalorean is far more peripheral.
This is exactly what I was going to say. The thematic core of Star Wars is the original 3 movies. Even people that like the other movies/shows/books admit this. The same is true for Dragonlance. The War of the Lance is the core of Dragonlance.
 


DarkCrisis

Legend
This is exactly what I was going to say. The thematic core of Star Wars is the original 3 movies. Even people that like the other movies/shows/books admit this. The same is true for Dragonlance. The War of the Lance is the core of Dragonlance.

Id say the thematic core of Star Wars are the Jedi and their struggles. Or possible even just the Skywalker lineage as they impact the Jedi. The themes revolving around family and redemption and good v evil. The movies are the settings one of those stories takes place in. IE the (Star) War(s). Themes are present in a setting a setting doesnt make the themes.

DL is more than just, as others have posted above, about a Dragon War. Just as Star Wars isnt just about a Space War. It's deeper than that.

Atleast thats how i see it.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Id say the thematic core of Star Wars are the Jedi and their struggles. Or possible even just the Skywalker lineage as they impact the Jedi. The themes revolving around family and redemption and good v evil. The movies are the settings one of those stories takes place in. IE the (Star) War(s). Themes are present in a setting a setting doesnt make the themes.

DL is more than just, as others have posted above, about a Dragon War. Just as Star Wars isnt just about a Space War. It's deeper than that.

Atleast thats how i see it.

Notice that all the live action stuff revolves around the OT in some way?

You have to go back to old Legends material to get away from it. The OT is the core of Star Wars.

Doesn't mean everything has to be about the OT same as DL.
 

DarkCrisis

Legend
Notice that all the live action stuff revolves around the OT in some way?

You have to go back to old Legends material to get away from it. The OT is the core of Star Wars.

Doesn't mean everything has to be about the OT same as DL.
I think "core" is being confused with "popular". Especially when used with "Thematic Core".

And from all the Star Wars board ive frequented, fans would REALLY like Disney to movie away from that time period and ESPECIALLY Tattooine.

Id also like Disney to scrub the sequels and reinstate the old EU but whatevs.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
Epic fantasy dragon-riding battles.

I don't want there to be the idiotic "too much Good is just as bad as too much Evil" moral. That is stupid and demonstrably incorrect and every time they tried to prove the moral true in the setting, they just made the "too much Good" just be "too much Evil".

I don't want the setting's morals to excuse/endorse genocide. I don't want the people that commit genocide and other atrocities to be labeled as "Good".

I also don't want "Good" and "Unbelievably Stupid" to be synonymous in the setting (i.e. the origin story of Draconians).

I don't want the setting to have stand-ins for real world mental disorders (autism/down syndrome, kleptomania, ADHD, Alzheimer's/dementia) that it regularly mocks.

I want magical knights that ride on the backs of dragons to fight other dragons. That's what I want. Not questionable (at best) morals and ableist mockery.
So how did the Cataclysm happen? Or are you just unending the history of the world entirely?
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
Nobody has said that.

But really, if you publish something in 2022 that conforms to the values of something written in 1985, with all the (un)intentional sexism, racism, and other bigotries of the time, and without any understanding of what tropes are no longer interesting--who do you think would buy it?


And absolutely nobody has said that they hate the thematic core of Dragonlance. In fact, lots of people have said that they love the thematic core. A great war, involving dragon-riding knights, between Good and Evil. With draconian super-soldiers on one side.

What people don't want are the stupid things in the setting. Cosmically "Good" people and organizations that allow for or actively commit evil deeds. Mary Sue kletpomaniacs. Ablest caricatures. Poorly-thought out white stereotypes of Native Americans. And so forth.

The real question is, why is it so important that these things remain in the game?
People have told me upthread, more than once, that no book not featuring contemporary values can be published today, at least by WotC (who are also the only people who can publish Dragonlance).
 

DarkCrisis

Legend
Nah, it'd be the constant demand that people have read an undisclosed amount of the setting else they be degraded.
Yes, no one should be made fun of for their lack of knowledge.

I'd never would want be made fun of in a discussion with someone over say Greyhawk or Middle Earth, as I know next to nothing about them aside from the surface level stuff.

Though, I certainly wouldn't tell those who have read all that stuff that I know better than they do either. shrugs
 

Hussar

Legend
no real world religions
I'm not really arguing this point anymore because I don't see any way forward, but, it's REAALLLLYYY hard to discuss the themes of Dragonlance when the very obvious source of the material is lifted, virtually verbatim, straight from the Bible. I understand the "no religions" thing, but, since everyone knows and understands exactly where this part of Dragonlance comes from, perhaps we could stop pretending that it doesn't?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I'm not really arguing this point anymore because I don't see any way forward, but, it's REAALLLLYYY hard to discuss the themes of Dragonlance when the very obvious source of the material is lifted, virtually verbatim, straight from the Bible. I understand the "no religions" thing, but, since everyone knows and understands exactly where this part of Dragonlance comes from, perhaps we could stop pretending that it doesn't?

You can talk about religion in terms of in game. No preaching etc.

Even real world stuff is fine eg cleric of Zeus or whatever.

If in doubt ask a mod.

Dragonlance does have a heavy influence from Mormonism, hell D&D has biblical references.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
So how did the Cataclysm happen? Or are you just unending the history of the world entirely?
If it were up to me, I'd either get rid of it or heavily retcon it to be out of the hands of the gods. Maybe they could tie it into the Dawn War, and have the Cataclysm be the result of the Primordials/Titans coming back and the cosmic war destroying much of the planet and setting back the magic and technology levels of the world for hundreds of years. Or maybe the Kingpriest caused it directly, through a failed apotheosis ritual or by summoning the evil gods or something like that. Similar to how the Calamity happened in Exandria.

In my opinion, if the history of the world says that the good gods commit acts of genocide and get to still be labeled as "good", then the history deserves to be upended.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Yes, no one should be made fun of for their lack of knowledge.

I'd never would want be made fun of in a discussion with someone over say Greyhawk or Middle Earth, as I know next to nothing about them aside from the surface level stuff.

Though, I certainly wouldn't tell those who have read all that stuff that I know better than they do either. shrugs
That's not what's happening.

What's happening is that you keep insisting that people are only disagreeing with you because they haven't read the books.

Then when they (like I) say they have read the books, you then insist they haven't read the correct books. And you never tell anyone what these right books are that will magically allow us to have the correct opinion.
 

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