Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Hussar]

Choosing the lesser evil, even when you don't have a better choice doesn't make the lesser evil good.

Where is it claimed that the Cataclysm or the Tests are good?

Or are you of the opinion that you cannot have a good alignment If you are forced to choose the lesser of evils?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Mostly, I'm just tired of people telling me that things I really liked growing up actually suck, over and over again.

I hate to break it to you, but most of the things you grew up liking probably did suck. That's just a fact of the human existence.

Just a couple of months ago, I got nostalgic for some cartoons and other shows I liked growing up. A few of them held up, but most of them were absolute garbage that I'm embarrassed that I used to like. The same thing happens when I read a YA book series I grew up liking, or older movies that I liked.

Most of the things you grew up liking probably did suck. Younger minds are worse at objectively measuring how good media that they're exposed to is. That combined with nostalgia makes you look more fondly back on things you grew up with than you probably would now if you experienced them for the first time.

 

[Hussar]

Except the limb is actually thousands or millions of thinking, feeling, sentient beings, most of whom had nothing to do the "infection"... and the surgeon is most likely capable of using a precision attack instead of genocide but chose not to.

Cosmic scale alignments and actual morality don't mix.

So is the problem not trying to tie the alignment system to cosmic scale?

Which is no longer an issue in 5e because you can pretty freely ignore alignment.

 

[Hussar]

But the Allied Forces in WWII weren't Gods of Goodness. You can't compare the actions of mortals with limited technology to the actions of literal gods. Compared to godly abilities, even an atom bomb is very limited.

Really?

You don’t see parallels to the end of the Pacific War here?

 

[Alzrius]

But the Allied Forces in WWII weren't Gods of Goodness. You can't compare the actions of mortals with limited technology to the actions of literal gods. Compared to godly abilities, even an atom bomb is very limited.

Given that the presentation of godly abilities has been notably different across the various editions of D&D, that's a statement that needs an asterisk, at the very least.

 

[Faolyn]

Really?

You don’t see parallels to the end of the Pacific War here?

No. As I already said, humans aren't gods and aren't considered to be pure good. Gods have godlike powers. They might not be omnipotent, but they shouldn't have to choose the lesser of two evils if they are actually good beings.

By no stretch of the imagination is genocide a good act. Even if every single living creature in that area was terribly, irredeemably evil, it wouldn't be a good act. It would be an evil act for a good cause. And in reality, no, not every single living creature in that area was irredeemably evil.

In D&D terms, it was a very major alignment violation that should have shifted their alignment to neutral at best and evil at worst.

So is the problem not trying to tie the alignment system to cosmic scale?

Which is no longer an issue in 5e because you can pretty freely ignore alignment.

This is a partial fix. The greater fix would be to either stop listing these gods as gods of good/neutrality/evil or to actually have them act according to their alignment.

 

[Faolyn]

Given that the presentation of godly abilities has been notably different across the various editions of D&D, that's a statement that needs an asterisk, at the very least.

According to the 1e Dragonlance Adventures book, Paladine was 40th level in both cleric and magic-user, Majere was a 52rd-level monk, Kiri-Jolith was 29th level in both fighter and cleric, Mishakal was a 25th-level cleric, Habbakuk was a 27th-level druid, Branchala was 35th level in both fighter and bard, and Solinar was a 40th-level wizard of the white robes.

I'm pretty sure they could have figured something out.

 

[Hussar]

No. As I already said, humans aren't gods and aren't considered to be pure good. Gods have godlike powers. They might not be omnipotent, but they shouldn't have to choose the lesser of two evils if they are actually good beings.

By no stretch of the imagination is genocide a good act. Even if every single living creature in that area was terribly, irredeemably evil, it wouldn't be a good act. It would be an evil act for a good cause. And in reality, no, not every single living creature in that area was irredeemably evil.

In D&D terms, it was a very major alignment violation that should have shifted their alignment to neutral at best and evil at worst.


This is a partial fix. The greater fix would be to either stop listing these gods as gods of good/neutrality/evil or to actually have them act according to their alignment.

So, in your argument, no good god can ever handle the Trolley Problem? That any good god faced with a situation where all options are bad, and it's a question of doing the least evil, that god can never, ever be considered a Good god forever afterwards?

Basically, you're arguing that all good deities in D&D are 1e style Paladins with an antagonistic DM who delights in making them lose their paladin status. Because there are lots of times when the lesser of evils is the only choice. And, additionally, since D&D deities are most specifically NOT omniscient, then they can be mistaken.

But, again, I have to ask, who considers the Cataclysm to be a good act? It might have been the right one (and we can argue that for a long, long time) but, AFAIK, no one ever calls it a good act. No one claims that the Towers of High Sorcery are good. Necessary, but, good? I don't think that's ever even suggested.

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Just a point too about the idea of remakes and reboots being bad. IMO, the question isn't about whether reboots are good or bad, but whether or not they are good or bad at a different rate than original works. Thousands of English language original novel length genre works have been published in the past year. Last statistic I saw put it at about 3000. How many of those are "good"?

 

[Faolyn]

So, in your argument, no good god can ever handle the Trolley Problem? That any good god faced with a situation where all options are bad, and it's a question of doing the least evil, that god can never, ever be considered a Good god forever afterwards?

Did you see what levels those gods were? If faced with a trolley problem, those gods would literally have the power to stop time (time stop) and move everyone out of the way (telekinesis). And that's ignoring the number of wishes they would have had available. And that's without taking into consideration anything other than class levels.

If you have the power to stop a problem peacefully, and instead you choose mass murder, then no, you can't be considered Good ever again.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Really?

You don’t see parallels to the end of the Pacific War here?

While I don't remember the nukes destroying global civilization, I do remember how in the early years of 2000, Truman reappeared running around being a comical cartoon wizard.