Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Faolyn]

What? No, the point is that they didn't try, not really. They didn't do nearly all of what was in their power to do. The interdiction against direct action is a facade, because the Cataclysm itself is direct action. "I'm not allowed to directly intervene to prevent this particular direct intervention, because direct intervention is not allowed." It's a naughty word excuse.


They were not, in fact, forbidden from acting directly, because the Cataclysm is direct action and they took part in it, as you noted here. That's the whole point. They engaged in direct, genocidal action. To the claim that they were unable to act directly is entirely untenable.

In addition to this, as a reminder, any claim of "not allowed to directly intervene" is entirely author fiat. The writers decided that the Good gods would do an evil thing (multiple evil things, actually, counting abandoning the world) but would still be considered good.

...It kinda makes me wonder if the reason why Weiss and Hickman were so opposed to Soth being sucked into Ravenloft is that they didn't feel it was all that bad for him to abandon his quest to stop the Cataclysm to confront his "cheating" wife. Like, were they thinking that the Cataclysm was an acceptable or even good act, and having Soth declared Totally Evil because of his actions mean that they would have to change their opinion on it?

 

[Haplo781]

If we're going to keep the Cataclysm as an act of the gods, the one thing that would make sense to me is if the gods operate on a basis of "intervention by side A opens the door for equal intervention by side B". So, fearing that stopping the Kingpriest unilaterally would open the door for Team Evil to do something unprecedented, Team Good decided to negotiate a bipartisan solution.

And since evil always acts in bad faith, the dark gods mandated that the Kingpriest be stopped by an act of mass destruction.

Since the Cataclysm was an act that both good & evil pantheons were involved in, it preserved the balance.

But I'd still prefer to sidestep the issue altogether.

 

[Alzrius]

...It kinda makes me wonder if the reason why Weiss and Hickman were so opposed to Soth being sucked into Ravenloft is that they didn't feel it was all that bad for him to abandon his quest to stop the Cataclysm to confront his "cheating" wife. Like, were they thinking that the Cataclysm was an acceptable or even good act, and having Soth declared Totally Evil because of his actions mean that they would have to change their opinion on it?

Soth's failure to stop the Cataclysm isn't why he was pulled into Ravenloft. The Dark Powers didn't wait for over three hundred-fifty years and then say "oh yeah, we had this guy down to be pulled in by the Mists, but forgot until now."

 

[Faolyn]

Soth's failure to stop the Cataclysm isn't why he was pulled into Ravenloft. The Dark Powers didn't wait for over three hundred-fifty years and then say "oh yeah, we had this guy down to be pulled in by the Mists, but forgot until now."

You're mostly right. The books said he followed a woman's voice into Ravenloft because he fell for her and tried to make her undead like him, but--just like with Dragonlance--I don't feel like one should have to read the Ravenloft novel to have the information needed to play the game.

That being said, the Dark Powers move through both space and time, so they didn't have to wait 350 years.

 

[Alzrius]

You're mostly right. The books said he followed a woman's voice into Ravenloft because he fell for her and tried to make her undead like him, but--just like with Dragonlance--I don't feel like one should have to read the Ravenloft novel to have the information needed to play the game.

That being said, the Dark Powers move through both space and time, so they didn't have to wait 350 years.

Point of clarity: while the original boxed set said that Lord Soth followed Kitiara's voice into the Mists (and I think the second boxed set also repeated that), the novel Knight of the Black Rose clarified that it was a false rumor put forward by the elves in his domain (who may or may not have known it wasn't true; it's not clear). In fact, it was because he deliberately betrayed Kitiara in order to turn her into an undead creature just because he wanted her to liven things up in Dargaard Keep.

Likewise, the idea that the Dark Powers can manipulate the flow of time in the Demiplane (including when portals out of it lead to) is one that should only be invoked when there's evidence that temporal manipulation is involved. Otherwise, it's putting forward the idea that "this might be true because nothing says it isn't," which tends to confuse discussions rather than contribute to them.

 

[Faolyn]

Point of clarity: while the original boxed set said that Lord Soth followed Kitiara's voice into the Mists (and I think the second boxed set also repeated that), the novel Knight of the Black Rose clarified that it was a false rumor put forward by the elves in his domain (who may or may not have known it wasn't true; it's not clear). In fact, it was because he deliberately betrayed Kitiara in order to turn her into an undead creature just because he wanted her to liven things up in Dargaard Keep.

Likewise, the idea that the Dark Powers can manipulate the flow of time in the Demiplane (including when portals out of it lead to) is one that should only be invoked when there's evidence that temporal manipulation is involved. Otherwise, it's putting forward the idea that "this might be true because nothing says it isn't," which tends to confuse discussions rather than contribute to them.

OK, I was wrong about why Soth became a Darklord. My reasons for wondering if Weiss and Hickman are still valid. As is my statement that one shouldn't need to read the novels in order to play the game.

 

[Hussar]

If we're going to keep the Cataclysm as an act of the gods, the one thing that would make sense to me is if the gods operate on a basis of "intervention by side A opens the door for equal intervention by side B". So, fearing that stopping the Kingpriest unilaterally would open the door for Team Evil to do something unprecedented, Team Good decided to negotiate a bipartisan solution.

And since evil always acts in bad faith, the dark gods mandated that the Kingpriest be stopped by an act of mass destruction.

Since the Cataclysm was an act that both good & evil pantheons were involved in, it preserved the balance.

But I'd still prefer to sidestep the issue altogether.

Thank you. This is what I’ve been very badly trying to say.

 

[Fifth Element]

Thank you. This is what I’ve been very badly trying to say.

You have expressed that, it just doesn't affect the argument. Bipartisan genocide is still genocide. The idea that the good gods could not intervene directly because the evil gods might do something bad in return is completed defeated by the fact that the good gods agreed to participate in a TERRIBLE action, in order to prevent the bad gods from doing something...terrible. So the good gods simply acquiesced to evil, which is itself evil.

 

[Haplo781]

You have expressed that, it just doesn't affect the argument. Bipartisan genocide is still genocide. The idea that the good gods could not intervene directly because the evil gods might do something bad in return is completed defeated by the fact that the good gods agreed to participate in a TERRIBLE action, in order to prevent the bad gods from doing something...terrible. So the good gods simply acquiesced to evil, which is itself evil.

A known quantity of evil as opposed to giving Team Evil a blank check to intervene directly at a time of their choosing.

The devil you know, and all that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You have expressed that, it just doesn't affect the argument. Bipartisan genocide is still genocide. The idea that the good gods could not intervene directly because the evil gods might do something bad in return is completed defeated by the fact that the good gods agreed to participate in a TERRIBLE action, in order to prevent the bad gods from doing something...terrible. So the good gods simply acquiesced to evil, which is itself evil.

The problem i have with this is, to me it sounds like you're saying that anyone who isn't an activist is evil.