Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[humble minion]

The problem i have with this is, to me it sounds like you're saying that anyone who isn't an activist is evil.

Well, if you phrase is as 'anyone who has the power to avert a genocide and deliberately, knowingly chooses not to is evil' I think it's not too controversial.

The way I'd personally do it is that the good gods can't intervene because they already HAVE intervened. They did it during the rise of Istar and the Kingpriest, to help this burgeoning empire of good and light gain power and spread goodness over the world. But they did all this on cosmic credit - this intervention of theirs means that the Evil gods can intervene with equal strength later. The balance can be written as something that binds the gods too - an era of good now means that when the see-saw swings back the other way, it's going to be harder and more severe.

So even though by the time of the cataclysm Istar is really only worshipping the gods of good in name only rather than by deed, when the era of Good starts to die, Evil has stored up a really big hammer. The evil gods make their intervention, throw the mountain at Istar, and taunt the good gods that the trajectory of Istar proves that mortals tend toward evil, and tell the good gods that they'll avert the Cataclysm if the good gods supposed champions can prove they still have some innate goodness. The good gods know that their star is in the decline and can't do much about the cataclysm directly, without mortal participation. So the good gods have no alternative but to put their faith in the deep-down innate capacity for goodness and redemption of the Kingpriest and Soth. Oops. The good gods get it wrong, and the Cataclysm happens.

The good gods are horrified at the consequences of their hubris, and the neutral gods (who've sat it out up until now) are furious that so much knowledge, art, nature etc was lost in the Cataclysm, and the two groups band together and force the evil gods into the agreement to leave Krynn. And of course by this stage, most actual inhabitants of Krynn hate the evil gods for the genocide, hate the good gods for raising up this totalitarian empire that ruled brutally in their name, and hate the neutral gods for letting all this happen. So mortals as a whole are more than ok with seeing the back of the whole lot of them.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm curious what you mean by power scaling.

I mean all full casters use the same chart (or a very slight modification for pact magic) so (and I am going by memory books are in storage) no letting black robes cast 9th level spell at level 14 but white not until 20.

Edit: Or rather how Dragonlance isn't a viable setting for modern play because of it.

it isn't viable as is... there are things that just NEED to be updated, off the top of my head the caster charts

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean all full casters use the same chart (or a very slight modification for pact magic) so (and I am going by memory books are in storage) no letting black robes cast 9th level spell at level 14 but white not until 20.

it isn't viable as is... there are things that just NEED to be updated, off the top of my head the caster charts

For publishing, maybe. Not for play.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

For publishing, maybe. Not for play.

I mean I'm not understanding... do you mean YOU PERSONALLY MICHA could house rule it? then the only care is your audience (your players).
If wotC does it they have to worry about there infinitely larger audience.

 

[Hussar]

You have expressed that, it just doesn't affect the argument. Bipartisan genocide is still genocide. The idea that the good gods could not intervene directly because the evil gods might do something bad in return is completed defeated by the fact that the good gods agreed to participate in a TERRIBLE action, in order to prevent the bad gods from doing something...terrible. So the good gods simply acquiesced to evil, which is itself evil.

Ok, again, I accept your interpretion.

Full stop. Your point is made. I accept your point. I will not argue this any more. You have made your point well, supported it, and it is so stipulated.

Can we now PLEASE move past this?

Stipulating that your interpretation is the interpretation that we are going to use going forward, how would you include the Cataclysm into the setting in such a way that is acceptable to you and your interpretation of the setting?

Because I'm sick and tired of going around and around in circles where every time I suggest a possible way forward, the same three or four people just shout me down and refuse to accept any proposal I've made. So, again, given that I AGREE WITH YOUR INTERPRETATION AND AM NOT IN ANY WAY DISAGREEING WITH YOUR INTERPRETATION, how would YOU include the Cataclysm?

 

[Hussar]

Well, if you phrase is as 'anyone who has the power to avert a genocide and deliberately, knowingly chooses not to is evil' I think it's not too controversial.

The way I'd personally do it is that the good gods can't intervene because they already HAVE intervened. They did it during the rise of Istar and the Kingpriest, to help this burgeoning empire of good and light gain power and spread goodness over the world. But they did all this on cosmic credit - this intervention of theirs means that the Evil gods can intervene with equal strength later. The balance can be written as thing that binds the gods too - an era of good now means that when the see-saw swings back the other way, it's going to be harder and more severe.

So even though by the time of the cataclysm Istar is really only worshipping the gods of good in name only rather than by deed, when the era of Good starts to die, Evil has stored up a really big hammer. The evil gods make their intervention, throw the mountain at Istar, and taunt the good gods that the trajectory of Istar proves that mortals tend toward evil, and tell the good gods that they'll avert the Cataclysm if the good gods supposed champions can prove they still have some innate goodness. The good gods know that their star is in the decline and can't do much about the cataclysm directly, without mortal participation. So the good gods have no alternative but to put their faith in the deep-down innate capacity for goodness and redemption of the Kingpriest and Soth. Oops. The good gods get it wrong, and the Cataclysm happens.

The good gods are horrified at the consequences of their hubris, and the neutral gods (who've sat it out up until now) are furious that so much knowledge, art, nature etc was lost in the Cataclysm, and the two groups band together and force the evil gods into the agreement to leave Krynn.

A THOUSAND TIMES THANK YOU!!!!

Actually, I really like this approach. It's a very neat idea and strongly plays into the core conceits of the setting - balance and whatnot - without necessitating much changes at all. Very light touch. I most certainly could live with this one. Anyone else?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

how would YOU include the Cataclysm?

I would have the evil gods cause it... and be the moment that good and evil gods come to the table to negotiate... and the evil gods pull a fast one. They offer "we messed up, we shouldn't have done this just cause you had a good guy(yes make the entire story change so the king was goood) winning. SO we propose we will leave the mortals alone and not directly or indirectly interfere if you do the same..."
seeing that going to war would cause cataclysm after cataclysm the good gods agree (with caveats and reservations).
Then remember not all good gods are lawful, there are chaotic good gods, and they may test some binderies... like leaving metal discs around that could return divine magic.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Maybe lord Soth is in Sithicus again, but not in the demiplane of the dread by the Dark Power, but in a dark domain in the Krynnspace-shadowfell created by Chemosh, the gof of death in Krynn. He has been sent there to be the nemesis of the high-priest, but the true dark lord is Raistlin, whose torment is the unstopable eternal conflict between the high-priest (Bedlinas Pilofiro, the responsible of the Cataclysm) vs lord Soth. And lord Soth is "punished" with the "plague" he created, the kender vampires. And the "secret" is this dark domain was really created to be a "firefall" in the space-time continium to stop possible planar invasion from the Far Realm or other timelines.

* I would retouch the story of the Cataclysm, but the high-priest would be the main guilty. Maybe the deities didn't send the meteor, but this was summoned by the high-priest as an attack against the Krynn pantheon, and then the deities (or their champions) had to redirect the meteor against the ritual casters, almost accidentally.

In my own version Beldinas Pilofiro was closer to English king Henry V than pope Borgia. He started to investigate the psionic powers as a way to "steal" the spark of the divinity, and he was the indirectly responsible of the creation of a secret order of psionic mystics and ardents. The total destruction of this order was the secondary cause of the Cataclysm. (And this may explain the reason because the psionic manifesters aren't wellcome in Krynn).

Other point is the possible retcon of the Krynnspace. For example the destroyed planet Zivilyn was the main target in the Cataclysm, and the damage suffered in Krynn was "only" collateral damages (because the kingpriest of Istar wanted the help from the Zivilyans by means of a teletrasportation portal). Maybe the people from the planet Zivilyn discovered a planar gate but they "invited the wrong guests". Maybe within Zivilyn there is a planar gate toward the "darkspace" and other toward the demiplane of the dread.

Or the heroes of the lance and family (and Huma among others) are the "fey lords" of domain of delight within the Feywild-Krynn as a reward in the afterlife (and even in special days Caramon can be visited by his brother Raistlin).

 

[DarkCrisis]

It’s pointless to discuss the Cataclysm because it’s steeped in a topic we can’t discuss and gets into philosophical ideals that again we can’t really discuss.

Anyone pro-Cataclysm as written is handicapped to discuss it.

So we might as well all just agree to disagree.

Besides WotC is more than likely going to change it and/or barely discuss it in the 1/16th of the book they will dedicate to lore.

 

[Hussar]

It’s pointless to discuss the Cataclysm because it’s steeped in a topic we can’t discuss and gets into philosophical ideals that again we can’t really discuss.

Anyone pro-Cataclysm as written is handicapped to discuss it.

So we might as well all just agree to disagree.

Besides WotC is more than likely going to change it and/or barely discuss it in the 1/16th of the book they will dedicate to lore.

Honestly? This is probably the closest to truth that we're going to get.

But, yeah, that's the drum I've been banging for a while now. We're not going to come to some sort of consensus here. Good grief, theologians have been debating how can a good and just deity allow evil to happen for thousands of years. You and I and everyone in this thread are NOT going to come to an answer.

So, as I said, let's just go with what we largely can agree on. I think most people seem to be kosher with the idea that a Cataclysm of some sort in necessary for the setting. Can we come up with a few plausible scenarios where we keep the Cataclysm and it's at least acceptable to most people? I do really like the notion that balance or detente between the good and evil gods must be maintained, so, the good gods screwed up by putting the Kingpriest into power in the first place and that allows the evil gods to build up enough "karma" or whatever you want to call it, to force the issue of the Cataclysm.