Dragons aren't that strong, are they?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I was reading a thread the other day about how to play dragons "right". I've only run dragons a few times, and will freely admit I didn't play them to their best of their abilities. Among other things, I always have the dragon be a solitary encounter. I'm just not a fan of turning every dragon into Don Red Scale.

IMO, dragons are weaker than their reputation indicates. This doesn't mean their CR is wrong, just that DMs want the dragon to nearly wipe the floor with the PCs, then use an "appropriate" CR rather than a "boss" CR.

Dragon problems.

AC - you think it's high. Most DMs don't really know their fighter's AC scores. Dragons usually have pretty lame AC scores - compare it to your fighters' if you don't believe me. They're higher than those of many other monsters, but they still end up pretty lame.

A CR 10 juvenile red dragon has an AC of 24. A fighter will likely have an AC of 27 by that level, according to the PC chart for Enemies and Allies. This is before buffs... and the party buffs better than the dragon and can debuff it fairly well.

A CR 15 young adult red dragon has an AC of 26 (that's an AC increase of 2 points over 5 points of CR). A 15th-level fighter can expect an AC of 32.

A CR 20 old red dragon has an AC of 33, much lower than the nearly fully optimized AC of 45 for a 20th-level fighter - my own build. (I think an AC of 41 is more reasonable for the fighter, which is still 8 points higher.)

Buffs - Dragons have a low caster level. Hit 'em with a targetted dispel magic. On a related note, a dragon will have a hard time dispelling flying PCs, due to its lower class levels.

The beginning approach - most dragons are big flying creatures. The PCs will see them from quite a distance away and get time to buff. Dragons can't cast invisibility at will and by the time they see the PCs to set up an ambush (and cast the spell), the PCs might already have seen it and then buff. This is particularly dangerous to the dragon, whose breath weapon is often elemental and whose caster level is too low to strip off their anti-energy buffs.

Melee attacks - surprisingly weak. A dragon's full-round attack can add up to quite a bit of damage, but it's a bad position to be in. (Their individual attacks are sometimes weaker than a dedicated melee fighter's individual attacks, too.) A dragon that stays still can be easily flanked and gutted by a rogue (it's AC is lame, remember?). It also can't outdamage a party of four PCs. Melee is usually a losing proposition.

A 10th-level fighter might do 1d10+9 damage per hit with a one-handed weapon. At 15th-level, it might be 1d10+15 (3.5). This is assuming they are not using elemental weapons, otherwise, their damage values would practically match.

Fortunately, the dragon's breath weapon does a lot of damage and encourages the PCs to spread out. Maybe you can pick out a PC and trample them, but the other three will immediately move towards and eviscerate the dragon, so maybe that's not a good idea, either.

Dragons have weak SR but greast saves. If you can find a Cloak of Resistance that doesn't make your dragon look like a dork, go ahead and use it!

Dragons with Snatch and Flyby Attack rule! I don't think the Crush ability is any good though - it's not useful unless you can hit multiple opponents with it, which means you've just set yourself up to be flanked.

 

[Nightfall]

PSH,

Uhm not sure what planet you're on but I found most dragons (save the occasional Draco-lich) pretty darn tough. Age of Worms proves that.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Dragons that are smaller than large should not enter melee, but they are great hit and run critters. As you said, if not used carefully they die quickly to massed party attacks, but by using a bit of tactics and concetrating on thier advantages, they become deadly.

A dragon can dive from 1000 ft up to make a hideous power attack on the 2nd round. If the dragon sees the PCs casting a lot of buffs have it fly away, returning an hour later. Dragons nearly always have maxed ranks in spot so a cr 11 black will have +22 spot you really think PCs will see it before it sees them?

feats from the draconmicon such as recover breath (-1 rnd of recovery time), quicken or maximize breath can really make them terrible.

as for low caster level the practiced caster feat seems necessary for any dragon that relies on spell casting. Hover can also be used to create a blinding cloud to protect the dragon from melee/sneak attacks. If you want truely abusive - look into the possiblity of Wraithstrike and Power attacking avalible starting as YA or Adult cr 11-14

 

[frankthedm]

They can afford to max out combat expertice every round. improved trip is also a damn good feat for a dragon too.

The round the caster spends dispeling the Dragon's sheild and mage armor is one less round the caster is blasting the dragon

Just about any dragon is more than smart enough to kill the party one by one. If you think t is being a Bad DM for a monster to efficently take out one party member, flee [run action while flying is legal] and come back once thier buff wear out, that is not the dragon's fault it dies, it is yours. Also a smart dragon will minimize any time it spends in a place where it can't do this.

 

[Sejs]

A note concerning Crush.

Crush is not for use against melee characters. Crush is there to kill the bejesus out of spellcasters. Ref save with a DC equal to their breath weapon, or be pinned and take multiple d8s (plus 1.5 their str mod) in bludgeoning damage per round.

Beyond that, other things to consider - the Snatch and Fling (particularly for healers or anyone in plate, doubly so if there's water or such near by), or the Snatch and Fly Off.

A group of PCs may be able to handle a dragon, one PC on their own generally doesn't have a prayer.

 

[Sejs]

They can afford to max out combat expertice every round. improved trip is also a damn good feat for a dragon too.

Want PCs to crap their pants?

Dragon with Improved Sunder.

 

[Solarious]

Most dragons, especially those with high age catagories, have Int comparable to ancient liches. Take advantage of this fact, and let your dragons anticipate a number of your PC's tactics ahead of time. They do have centuries of experience to draw on, after all. Also, their hoards aren't always used to make them feel nice and pretty (despite the fact it is the primary purpose of a hoard... just not the only one). Add a few custom items to beef them up, as genius dragons have long lives to look forward to, and want at least a few reassurances they'll get to enjoy the millenia or so they are given.

Also, Dragons frequently use terrian to their advantage, the more extreme, the better. Take the classical Red Dragon, for example. Volcanoes are their favorite lairs for a reason, mostly because they can drag intruders for a one-on-one session into the lava. I love 20d6 full immersion damage. Burns right through those Resist Energy spells. The fact that they're almost always bigger and have monster Str scores means that they win almost all the time. And even if they happen to be immune to fire, good luck on catching up, let alone see the dragon, while red scales can hold their breath for minutes, can see with blindsight, and probably move easily in lava thanks to high swim checks, also courtesy of high Str scores.

Blue Dragons enjoy using attrition tactics instead, destroying a PC's water supply while they are in the dessert, then luring them into an ambush with Mirage Arcana and Mimicry abilities. Characters capable of creating water/food, and items capable of the same, have large imaginary bullseyes painted on them, naturally. Black Dragons pursue an underwater aquatic ambush strategy, as well, using Corrupt Water and Plant Growth to pin them down while the Dragon strafes the opposition with breath weapons and melees individuals at their leisure while the rest are hopelessly pinned down.

In fact, ambush is a popular Dragon strategy, as is divide and conquer. Flying only amplifies their ability to do so, as well as a quick avenue of escape if possible. Magic complelents a Dragon's power, and should be used as such. Battlefield control to isolate one or two characters, so you can put the superior draconic melee ability to good use. Or buffs, such as Mirror Image, (Improved) Mage Armor, Displacement, ect. Nothing like making that high AC numbers even more impossible to reach! Or even utility, like Shape Stone, which sacrifices combat poweress for the justification for the dragons to unleash horrific circumstances upon unsuspecting players (like having a flow of lava get diverted right on top of a party ).

There are plenty of ways to make a party suffer using dragons... you just need to be creative.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I know this is tough- bear with me- but playing dragons well is something that comes with experience.

You have to get inside the heads of these reptiles- they live hundreds of years, if not thousands. Most of them are smarter than the average human, and many are smarter than most wizards and some divine beings. Once discovered, they will be hunted the rest of their lives, and they know this. Thus, they will be astute tactitians.

Always assume a dragon will make the best possible use of its abilities. It will fight dirty. It will use subterfuge to conceal its body, its maneuvers, and its intentions. It will use magic- evocations, of course, but also divinations, illusions, enchantments and anything else- almost as well as a mage or lich. Why should a dragon strafe a party from the front when it can send an illusion to do so...and attack from the rear.

Having lived in an area for decades if not centuries, they will know the terrain better than any human in the vicinity. They will know lines of sight, box canyons, bottlenecks, high avalanche risk areas, weakened dams, quicksand...and may even set traps like deadfalls or such. They will try their best to control the battlespace, and have all the tools to do it. They will know where they can hide within feet of humans and never be spotted. A black dragon lying submerged and moss-draped in the swamps should be no more visible than a large crocodile.

They will think, and thus fight, in 3 dimensions. Why should a flying dragon attack a flying battleship from above deck when it can attack it from below? They will use cloud cover. They will drop great weights from greater heights. They will attack out of the sun like the Red Baron.

To a dragon, everything around it will be a weapon, even its hoard. That hoard will contain items the party wants, beyond the gold and gems...but a crafty dragon will know what is most valuable and where to put it, either to draw the party's attention or to escape detection. If the party goes ooking for the 2-Handed Sword of Über, and there it is, thrust Excalibur-like, into the gold 20 yards in front of them, they may never notice the ledge that overhangs the entryway until it is too late and the dragon pounces...

They will know what items they can use themselves. They may even do things like use their massive bodies and strength to shove piles of gold at the party like a streetfighter flinging sand or rocks, limiting visibility and movement...and if the dragon has the right spell or breath weapon, he can slag that gold around his foes if need be.

A white dragon, by way of contrast, might freeze puddles or small streams around the feet of the party members.

 

[frankthedm]

Want PCs to crap their pants?

Dragon with Improved Sunder.

Improved disarm puts the weapon in the dragon's possesion. Then fly away with the newest addition to the hoard.

Repeat the process once the player stops strangling you.

 

[Victim]

Most dragons, especially those with high age catagories, have Int comparable to ancient liches.

Or, to phrase things differently, most dragons are almost as smart as the PC wizard fighting them. People really tend to overstate the INT of dragons. Not that they're dumb (usually, some of the younger and/or weaker types aren't really bright), but I doubt many DMs would be happy to see PC wizzies use the same level of metagaming that they reccomend for smart monsters.

Dragons are almost like an adventuring party rolled into 1 being: they have decent melee, especially when buffed, good skills, and spellcasting with the ability to pick sorcerer AND cleric stuff. But they're still only one being, and thus can be overwhelmed.

Divide and conquer is always good. Dragons are incredibly fast, and can use that speed to wear down buffs, lure out faster stupid people, or make a getaway. Wall of Force can split the enemy, and can't be dispelled easily so the low caster level isn't a problem. On the downside, it doesn't work well in the open areas that fast fliers would normally like.

Appropriate defenses against Dispels (counterspell items, practiced spellcaster) can render a dragon an unholy terror, since it pick all the best buffs and then keep them. A fully buffed dragon is pretty much insane.

As an aside, I'm not really fond of much of the Draconomicon stuff. It seems to create a definite arms race in that it gives awesome powers for dragons, and then specific anti-dragon spells to counter their advantage. That's pretty lame, IMHO.