Dragons aren't that strong, are they?

[KarinsDad]

I've learned the hard way that a Dragon that is 2/3rds damaged is a Dragon that should be running away to fight another day.

Several of the PCs in my campaign have some way to do major damage at least a few times per day. So, the instant a dragon appears, they start shooting with the big guns.

The trick is to move in, focus attacks on one PC, and then fly away.

In our campaign, we have a reoccurring villain green juvenile dragon that does precisely that. It has fought the PCs 3 times now, killing one PC the first time.

However, the PCs, as they go up in levels, are getting more powerful, so the last two fights were not as impressive. In fact, in the last fight, the dragon flew away whining "It's not fair" (course, when the PC Wizard used Benign Transposition to switch the PC Monk that the Dragon almost had dead with the fresh PC Paladin, it was like starting the combat all over Boy, did that tick off the dragon). One down side of dragons is that as reoccurring villains, the PCs tend to get a lot more powerful whereas the Dragon tends to only improve slightly (maybe a few upgrades to his lair and tactics somewhat).

On the bright side, the reoccurring villain Wizard (who has fought the PCs 4 times) took note of the last battle with the dragon, so he offered a partnership with the dragon. The dragon accepted. So, they are preparing an ambush (that is, once the Wizard finishes with his current scheme which for certain reasons, does not include the dragon). Both the Dragon and the Wizard plan to use the other to both do and absorb most of the damage to/from the party and then plan to wipe out the other once the party is destroyed (but only if the party is destroyed, the alliance is too valuable for both sides to break until then).

And since the Wizard has a very high intelligence, he will plan the entire attack, giving the Dragon tactics that it has not thought of previously (his Int is 5 higher than the dragon's).

But, I can understand the OPs POV. Parties tend to have a lot of options and they get more actions per round than a Dragon. If a Dragon does not start wiping them out quickly, it is often in serious trouble. And, even the best tactics by a dragon can sometimes be underwhelming at best (e.g. I have seen a dragon breath weapon rolling low and doing 2/3rds or less average damage, everybody saves, and it hardly slowed the party down).

 

[frankthedm]

Here are two nice throw-away-build dragons. Neither has hover, instead both are of very aggro builds. Pseudonatural parts are easily cut back out, but i find the template charming.
Pseudonatural Juvenile Blue Dragon ]
Large Dragon [Extraplanar]
Pseudonatural elements in bold
Hit Dice: 15d12+60 [165 HP]
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft., burrow 20 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 23 (–1 size, +14 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple:+15/+23
Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+6), 2 claws +16 melee (1d8+2), 2 wings +16 melee (1d6+2), 1 tail +16 Melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 5ft. 10 ft. with bite,
Special Attacks: True Strike 1/day, Bolt Breath 8d8 (Reflex DC 21) 80’x5’ line, create/destroy water 3/day[DC 17], sound imitation [DC 17]
Special Qualities: Horrid form [Foes take -1 moral' to hit'], DR 10/ magic, SR22, Resist Acid 10, Resist Electricity 10, Immune electricity
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +11
Abilities: [NPC non-elite] Str 19, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Abuse magic device +19, Concentration +14, Hide +16*, Knowledge: Far Raelm+10, Listen +19, Search +20, Sence Motive+ 19, Spot +19, Spellcraft +19,
Feats: Multi Attack[1], Combat Reflexes[3], Power attack[6], Combat Expertise[9], Improved Trip[12], Improved Disarm [15]
Challenge Rating: 10 8 without Pseudonatural elements
Treasure: Draconic Standard
Alignment: Lawful evil
Check list
[ ] True strike
[ ] [ ] [ ] create/destroy water[DC 17]
Spells
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 0th: Cure minor wounds, Read Magic, Detect magic, Prestidigitation.
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 1st Shield, Mage Armor

Pseudonatural Young Red Dragon
Pseudonatural elements in bold
Large Dragon [Extraplanar]
Hit Dice: 13d12+52 143 HP
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 22 (–1 size, +1 dex, +12 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple:+13/+23
Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+9), 2 claws +16 melee (1d8+3), 2 wings +16 melee (1d6+3), 1 tail +16 Melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 5ft. 10 ft. with bite,
Special Attacks: True Strike 1/day, Fire Breath 6d10 (Reflex DC 22) 40’ cone
Special Qualities: Immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, Horrid form [-1 to be hit] DR 10/ magic, SR23 Resist Acid 10, Resist Electricity 10
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +8
Abilities: [NPC non-elite] Str 22, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: Appraise +15, Abuse magic device +17, Bluff +12, Concentration +10, Jump +20*, Listen +15 Search +16, Sense Motive+ 10, Spot +15
Feats: Multi Attack[1], Combat Reflexes[3], Power attack[6], Combat Expertise[9], improved disarm [12] OR improved sunder
Challenge Rating: 9 7 without Pseudonatural elements
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Check list
[ ] True strike
Spells
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 0th: Cure minor wounds, Read Magic, Detect magic, Prestidigitation.
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 1st Shield, Mage Armor

 

[lukelightning]

I'm tired of macho-DM uber dragons. Yeah, they are tough monsters, but they aren't the rulers of the universe. I sometimes long for the bygone days when dragons were big tough dumb fire-breathing lizards with wings that were meant to be killed by heroes.

 

[Infiniti2000]

(Psi)SeveredHead, you need to redo all your comparisons fairly. That is, don't selectively choose the optimum build for a PC and not the dragon, don't use good PC tactics and stupid dragon tactics, don't allow the PC's equipment but not the dragon, etc. I find your initial post equivalent to: "If an optimized build of four PC's encounters a naked, penniless dragon in an open field (or not, depending on what the PC's want), then the dragon isn't strong!"

Unfortunately, the hardest part about comparisons is probably the most influential in the fight: location, location, location. A fight over the ledge in a volcano that is the only way into the dragon's lair is a far different affair to defeat the red dragon that when you encounter one in the woods with its virtual pants down doing a #2.

So, this is what you do. For each level you want to compare (notes below), (1) build a group of four PC's, PB25, standard wealth guidelines. (2) Build 5 dragons of equivalent CR, of totally different types and strengths/weaknesses. (3) Pick a locale that suits each dragon. (4) If the PC's stomp each of the five dragons, then your case is made. If not, then it's not.

(1) That's what the CR's were based on. Actually, it was all core, so use even that with a grain of salt. I wouldn't restrict either the PCs or dragon to core, though.

(2) This avoids the PC-build-tailor-made-to-a-red-dragon scenario that ALWAYS comes up in this comparison discussions. That red dragon bane unholy weapon is a lot less effective against a sand dragon.

(3) Of course. The PCs are the heroes and need to GO TO THE DRAGON, not that other way around. If you want to run it as a random encounter, well, that's just not correct.

(4) Together with #3, you need to show the PC's are much better than the dragon across the board. An optimized setup against one type of dragon will suck against others. I will still say that any build you make of the party will be stacked against dragons, but that's NOT the way a normal party is made, so it's unfair. And, note that a dragon of equal CR is only supposed to consume about 25% of the resources, so the heroes need to stomp it and stomp it good for the dragon not to be a decent power level for its CR.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In my Living ENWorld adventure, you can see a party of six adventurers level 2-4 come across a *sleeping* Young Silver Dragon, buff and surprise him with a devastating enraged power attack critical hit sneak attack with a greatsword (stupid Barbarian/Rogue) that single-handedly took out a massive chunk of health, and then still almost get their butts handed to them when the dragon takes off, buffs up his AC from 22 to 27 with a Ring of Protection from his hoard and a Mage Armour spell, and then strafes about in the air and uses ice breath.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm tired of macho-DM uber dragons. Yeah, they are tough monsters, but they aren't the rulers of the universe. I sometimes long for the bygone days when dragons were big tough dumb fire-breathing lizards with wings that were meant to be killed by heroes.

In Forgotten Realms, Dragons did once rule most of Faerun.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Part of the reasons Dragons might appear not to be as tough is simply that they are only once creature. This means they have a lot less actions per round than the PCs, and once the dragon is forced to react rather than act, he is in trouble. I think that is a problem that all encounters have when you use only a single opponent.

Despite being a very dangerous opponent in melee combat (thanks to 7 or more attacks per round), flying is often a better option.
Their spellcasting is laughable (IMO) if you think offensively, but their buff and defense spells are nice. With 2 1st level spells, they can increase their AC by 8 points. (Which makes it very important for Spellcasters to cast Dispel MAgic at a prepared dragon).

A typical problem is that the game is also Dungeons & Dragons. This means most encounters with Dragons happen in a dungeon enviroment, and everybody expects dragons to be a threat, therefore dragon strength and weaknesses are well-known. Everybody knows that a Dragon is dangerous, and will act accordingly.
The dungeon enviroment isn't really a enviroment where the dragon can use one of its strength - flight. A Dragons maneuverability is poor or clumsy, making it unusable in all except the largest rooms.

On the other hand, a Dragon that can attack his opponents in a fairly plain enviroment (even a forest is acceptable) willl have the upper hand, as long as not all of the characters can fly (and even then, most spells and abilities grant only slow flight speeds compared to a dragon).

The Dragon CR for HD package is very good. A Dragon has more HD than its CR, and these HDs come packed with d12 HP, full BAB, good saving throws, and plenty of skill points.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Okay, I'm getting some good advice here. Divide and conquer, the high Spot score and crush, for instance.

That is, don't selectively choose the optimum build for a PC and not the dragon, don't use good PC tactics and stupid dragon tactics, don't allow the PC's equipment but not the dragon, etc.

I already admitted I wasn't good at dragon tactics. The dragon doesn't "need" an optimal build. You can pull it straight from the MM like any monster. As for equipment, it's a real PitA to do for dragons. Or, indeed, any monster. When I spend more time working on equipment than planning the encounter, something is wrong.

(2) This avoids the PC-build-tailor-made-to-a-red-dragon scenario that ALWAYS comes up in this comparison discussions. That red dragon bane unholy weapon is a lot less effective against a sand dragon.

The PCs in question weren't tailor made to fight dragons - both the ones from Enemies and Allies and the ones from my old campaign.

I'm tired of macho-DM uber dragons.

Same here. They don't have to be doofuses, but I don't like genius dragons either.

 

[prosfilaes]

Or, to phrase things differently, most dragons are almost as smart as the PC wizard fighting them. People really tend to overstate the INT of dragons. Not that they're dumb (usually, some of the younger and/or weaker types aren't really bright), but I doubt many DMs would be happy to see PC wizzies use the same level of metagaming that they reccomend for smart monsters.

What do you mean metagaming? It's entirely realistic that a monster is going to plan its attack and defense carefully, especially on its own turf. PCs rarely have the time or knowledge to do so. Even so, several times I've seen players carefully plan out an attack using detailed (but realistic) knowledge and totally get a jump on a creature.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What do you mean metagaming? It's entirely realistic that a monster is going to plan its attack and defense carefully, especially on its own turf. PCs rarely have the time or knowledge to do so. Even so, several times I've seen players carefully plan out an attack using detailed (but realistic) knowledge and totally get a jump on a creature.

Agreed. And planning is crucial for dragons. In my FtF game, which went from level 1 to 21, at about level 14 or so, one of the party members (who happened to be an azer and thus immune to fire) went after a red dragon known to be fairly weak and stupid, and he killed it by himself in a fair fight. Greedy for his own dragon hoard, the party Wizard researched until he learned about a canny red dragon who had killed a rival silver dragon and had not one but two[/I hoards. He prepared his most powerful spells and entered the dragon's lair with near-total immunity to fire damage from spells. Eventually the dragon appeared. The wizard unleashed the most powerfully metamagicked volley of cones of colds that you have ever seen happen in a single round. The dragon had up Spell Turning The Wizard came back after the dragon to get back his lost gear. The dragon found out about this, and he prepared, catching the Wizard in an Antimagic Field and frying him to death. Later, at level 20, the heavily-buffed Frenzied Berserker died to the same dragon trying to get two hoards + the Wizard's stuff. That dragon defeated the party more than any of their enemies, even enemies about 10 CR higher than the dragon