lukelightning
First Post
People keep using 2000 year old dragons as an example of how dragons should be played; what about the supposedly more common 30, 40, 50, or 75 year old dragons?
Dragons aren't that strong, are they?
- Thread starter (Psi)SeveredHead
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I really like the way that 3e introduced dragons across the CR ranges, making them possible foes at all levels.
IMC the first dragon that was met was a juvenile white, and with an INT of 8 or so it wasn't particularly bright, but did have a certain cunning to it. Overall they fought against quite a wide range of dragons of up to CR12.
As already mentioned, dragons suffer greatly from not having nearly as many actions as the party gets. Breath weapon tends to be pretty useless in most cases (I've found as a DM and as a player on the recieving end) unless the dragon was breathing d10's.
The dragons best chance to do real damage in melee is the full attack against a single target with a decent amount of power attack thrown in - because they normally have BAB to burn and the power attack multiplies up quickly across it's 5 or more attacks. The only way it can even the odds is to kill individuals quickly.
The ideal for the larger ones is to snatch a single foe and make off with them, finish them and come back for the next. When they can't snatch Medium foes they are more limited of course.
Cheers
IMC the first dragon that was met was a juvenile white, and with an INT of 8 or so it wasn't particularly bright, but did have a certain cunning to it. Overall they fought against quite a wide range of dragons of up to CR12.
As already mentioned, dragons suffer greatly from not having nearly as many actions as the party gets. Breath weapon tends to be pretty useless in most cases (I've found as a DM and as a player on the recieving end) unless the dragon was breathing d10's.
The dragons best chance to do real damage in melee is the full attack against a single target with a decent amount of power attack thrown in - because they normally have BAB to burn and the power attack multiplies up quickly across it's 5 or more attacks. The only way it can even the odds is to kill individuals quickly.
The ideal for the larger ones is to snatch a single foe and make off with them, finish them and come back for the next. When they can't snatch Medium foes they are more limited of course.
Cheers
Exactly- a 30, 40 or 75 year old dragon should be no less crafty and intelligent than a human of similar Int.
Of course, don't forget to add things like their supreme confidence, territoriality, and lust for treasure into the mix. While they may be smart, iconic draconic racial characteristics may cause them to act unwisely.
Of course, don't forget to add things like their supreme confidence, territoriality, and lust for treasure into the mix. While they may be smart, iconic draconic racial characteristics may cause them to act unwisely.
The thing that makes dragons so dangerous (and how they would win encounters with adventurere) is their resource advantage. A dragon has a breath weapon that will do significant damage to the party, and the longer the dragon fights, the more often it can breathe. The dragon's fly speed is so high that it needs to be physically trapped to prevent its escape.
If adventurers want to beat a dragon, they have to do it quickly and decisively, and a dragon has all kinds of abilities that will extend a fight. The only tactic that a dragon needs to consider is how many more actions a party of adventurers will have than the dragon does; it's got to neutralize the party's offensive resources. Using a level 1 disguise self spell to neutralize the mass energy immunity is a good trade. Using a minor image to draw a maximized cone of cold is also a good trade. I'd think it would stroke a dragon's ego immensely when it outsmarts powerful heroes and genius wizards with crappy parlour tricks. A dragon's most powerful limited resource renews every 1d4 rounds, a party's limited resources take 24 hours or more. It's like a game of chess, but the dragon gets new pawns every few turns.
If adventurers want to beat a dragon, they have to do it quickly and decisively, and a dragon has all kinds of abilities that will extend a fight. The only tactic that a dragon needs to consider is how many more actions a party of adventurers will have than the dragon does; it's got to neutralize the party's offensive resources. Using a level 1 disguise self spell to neutralize the mass energy immunity is a good trade. Using a minor image to draw a maximized cone of cold is also a good trade. I'd think it would stroke a dragon's ego immensely when it outsmarts powerful heroes and genius wizards with crappy parlour tricks. A dragon's most powerful limited resource renews every 1d4 rounds, a party's limited resources take 24 hours or more. It's like a game of chess, but the dragon gets new pawns every few turns.
Einan
First Post
The one thing a DM usually forgets about a dragon is IT CAN LEAVE AND COME BACK LATER. PCs are usually under time pressure: kill it quickly before it does any real damage. The dragon can fight, leave, heal up itself probably with those handy stashes of Cure X Potions it surely has a ton of, and come back when the party is less suspecting.
Dragons should be the foes that PCs groan about. They are the iconic masters of the world. They are the timeless fear in a PCs heart. When you run one, think, "What would a really smart person do," and then do that. They usually have the advantage of preparation, terrain, guile and time. They've made traps. They've charmed local monsters. They've even, gasp!, hired adventurers to lay in wait for other adventurers.
I think we need a resurgence of B.A.D.D. (Bothered About Disposable Dragons) on these boards.
Einan
Dragons should be the foes that PCs groan about. They are the iconic masters of the world. They are the timeless fear in a PCs heart. When you run one, think, "What would a really smart person do," and then do that. They usually have the advantage of preparation, terrain, guile and time. They've made traps. They've charmed local monsters. They've even, gasp!, hired adventurers to lay in wait for other adventurers.
I think we need a resurgence of B.A.D.D. (Bothered About Disposable Dragons) on these boards.
Einan
lukelightning
First Post
Dannyalcatraz said:
In other words, they are idiots compared to my 9th level wizard. They have Ints of 12-14...bright, but not super-human.
Henry
Autoexreginated
lukelightning said:
And this is why you don't see many strategy threads about 75 year old dragons.
On the other hand, your 15th level wizard may be super-intelligent, or super-wise, but has only been alive somewhere between 10 and 30 years. The corresponding dragon has had lifetimes of experience by comparison. That's why one would have come up with lots of plots and plans for combat on familiar grounds. Just like it's difficult for a 20 or 30-year old player to properly portray a 26 INT high-level wizard, it's difficult for a DM to properly play an ancient dragon. It's why I sometimes do a little bending of rules for my super-dragons, and why I allow players INT or WIS checks to recall or reason out something that they can't figure out, yet their characters definitely would have had an easier time of.
lukelightning
First Post
Henry said:
A 15th level wizard is far more experienced than a 75 year old dragon. Sure, a the dragon has "a lifetime of experience" represented by the dragon's skill points, feats, stats, magical ability, BAB (combat experience) etc. but there is no "experience" stat other than level, and no separate system of judging how experience.
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