Dragons aren't that strong, are they?

[TheYeti1775]

Cruelist way to trick the party ....

The best / cruelist way to trick the party. Give the Dragon a Hat of Disguise. Let him go flying around looking like a different 'color', the party buff's are all wrong for resisting that breath weapon.

Yeti

 

[Pbartender]

[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 1st Shield, Mage Armor

Forget Shield. Give the dragon Disguise Self, and then have the dragon use that spell to make him look like a dragon of the opposite color when he knows a fight is coming...

The PCs see that white dragon coming in from a long ways off, and get themselves ready with cold-protecting spells, flaming weapons, scorching rays, fireballs and the like.

Of course, they've already wasted all their best spells and protections to the dragon's immunities by the time they realize what's going on at the end of the first round... And they've wasted anorther rounf or two, by the time they bring the proper weapons bear and the put the proper protections in place.

It's the sort of trick you can really play once on a good group of players... And even then, it doesn't usually win the battle. But it does make it last a bit longer, and the surprise of the player's, if they don't see it coming, is priceless.

 

[Evilhalfling]

The best / cruelist way to trick the party. Give the Dragon a Hat of Disguise. Let him go flying around looking like a different 'color', the party buff's are all wrong for resisting that breath weapon.

Yeti

The problem with that is dragons are highly climate based so only works in a few instances.
of course my players are going to find a Similacrum of a red in a glacier fortress- that should be a lot of fun.

If you have a hat of disguise, maskerade as a good dragon, and be wary of the paladins DE range.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I doubt many DMs would be happy to see PC wizzies use the same level of metagaming that they reccomend for smart monsters.

There is absolutely no reason why a several hundred year old dragon would be any less prepared to defend his lair than a lich of similar age.

I'm tired of macho-DM uber dragons. Yeah, they are tough monsters, but they aren't the rulers of the universe.

IMCs, the big, tough lizards with wings and breath weapons who don't have a lot of smarts are called drakes. Essentially, they're mentally challenged dragons.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Dragons' tactics should also be on a different scale. To a creature who can plan on living millenia (if he lives the next 30 seconds) they should see "encounters" the way adventurers see individual rounds of combat. Being driven off isn't losing, it's simply a change of tactics, much like switching from power attack to expertise.

I've ran appropriate CR dragon encounters and the dragons tend to inflict horrible amounts of damage. They may not survive the encounter but the party is maimed. Dragons win fights through battlefield control. They won't die of old age so they can usually bide their time. Their movement is such that they can outrun anything but a teleport. They are just as comfortable fighting at night as day and while a gliding dragon makes some noise, it is darned silent.

Hover, Wingover and snatch give them plenty of ability to break up groups. Hover's dust cloud trumps casters & archers. Snatch lets you grab someone (maybe the fighter) and drag them away from the party where you can drop them into a lake (possibly of lava). Wingover+snatch means you can grab someone at the edge of the party and make a 180-degree turn so you don't give the others any AoOs. Of course, I'm fond of using the breath weapon on a Snatched rogue.

The big thing is to play them mean. Evil dragons aren't honorable and good dragons don't see dishonorable foes as anything other than vile scum to be smote. Even the ones who are honorable will base their combat standards on other dragons; hence they will dish out a lot of abuse very quickly.

 

[IanB]

One thing I will say is the ACs you describe seem out of line with all the various 3E games I've played in.

I don't think I've seen a 15th level fighter sitting at AC 32 unbuffed in one of our games (buffed, sure), and nobody is sitting at AC 45 even in our epic game.

Now, I'm not sure if the various groups I've played in are horribly behind the curve, but the sample sizes are large enough that I suspect they aren't.

If ACs are getting into that range because of heavy use of non-core content, then I think some of that is where your problem lies. Non-core stuff is largely cool and fun but it isn't always balanced, and the core CR system sometimes strains under the weight of the extra options.

EDIT: That goes double for 3rd party d20 stuff.

 

[Endur]

One thing I will say is the ACs you describe seem out of line with all the various 3E games I've played in.

I don't think I've seen a 15th level fighter sitting at AC 32 unbuffed in one of our games (buffed, sure), and nobody is sitting at AC 45 even in our epic game.

AC is highly dependent on whether the player desires a high AC.

My 9th level dwarven defender had a base AC 28 (with situational modifiers of another +9: dodge, defenseive stance, against giants, etc.) before buffs and an AC of 36-45 after buffs. That was at level 9.

In a campaign ruled by Barbarians who claim shields are for wusses and plate armor only slows you down, AC would be much lower.

 

[Rystil Arden]

One thing I will say is the ACs you describe seem out of line with all the various 3E games I've played in.

I don't think I've seen a 15th level fighter sitting at AC 32 unbuffed in one of our games (buffed, sure), and nobody is sitting at AC 45 even in our epic game.

Now, I'm not sure if the various groups I've played in are horribly behind the curve, but the sample sizes are large enough that I suspect they aren't.

If ACs are getting into that range because of heavy use of non-core content, then I think some of that is where your problem lies. Non-core stuff is largely cool and fun but it isn't always balanced, and the core CR system sometimes strains under the weight of the extra options.

EDIT: That goes double for 3rd party d20 stuff.

At level 15, a Fighter who is even trying to improve AC at all can easily afford +4 full plate, +4 shield, +2 Ammy of Natural Armour, +2 Ring of Protection. This costs 48,000 (barely over 1/5th of his money) and provides AC 33. If he refuses to go Sword-and-Board, it costs a bit more cash, but he'll pick up a Floaty Shield +2 instead of the +4 shield and shell out 10k more for a +3 Ring of Protection and still hit 32. All core only.

45 at 20 is dicier. You can still do it with core-only, but you need to use a Tower Shield. (just replace the full plate with mithril full plate, the shield with a tower shield, and make all of four of them +5 and you hit 45)

 

[kigmatzomat]

Which is why dragons should use disarm, sunder or trip actions. Sure, it invokes an AoO if you don't have Improved (Action) but with 5 attacks (bite + 2x claw + 2x claw/wing) they should be able to de-weapon or drop the high AC people, rendering them non-threatening pretty quick.

Plus dragons should always use their spells. A dragon with spells who didn't use them deserves to die and prevent defective genetics from diluting the species. Detect magic, shield, mage armor, change self (other kind of dragon), enlarge, invisibility, etc are the kinds of spells dragons should have. Sure, true sight and see invis will show the dragon when he's ~120' feet out but heck, that's move & attack range!

 

[Magesmiley]

I must admit that I'm in the DM camp that feels that encounters with dragons should be some of the roughest and hardest ones players face. I tend to use every edge and advantage I can when playing one. That's not to say that the player's can't occasionally put one over on a dragon (often through flattery and other smart tactics) and get an edge on it - the dragon just makes the most of its environment and abilities when I play one.

How a dragon reacts is going to be based a lot on the situation. For any dragon of a decent age, it has experience dealing with the types of threats adventurers pose. Its not entirely unreasonable for a dragon to have counter-tactics for a number of common gambits (many players do, why should a dragon be less intelligent on this front). It is also important to remember that dragons aren't dumb - they should also know when to run away and have a plan on how to do that to escape pursuit.

While the dragon has few spells to work with, it should make the most of them by selecting ones that complement its existing powers. Shield, Mage Armor, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance are a few which come to mind immediately. Alarm is another simple spell which can make a huge difference for a dragon - if they know trouble is on its way, they can be ready and waiting with their other spells.

As mentioned by others, dragons should use their magic items. Does that mean that they leave the pile of healing potions laying on the ground waiting for some adventurers to steal? No. They should have them cached in a location the dragon can withdraw to for a quick recovery. The dragon has a wand of fireballs? Well, why not use it on the rounds the dragon's breath weapon is recovering (this also can be a nasty surprise for players who have some sort of energy resistance up against the dragon's breath). Rings should be used, along with any other items the dragon can manage. Make the player's work for all the dragon's goodies.

Terrain. A dragon should know its battlefield, including where it will withdraw to if the battle turns against it. A few additional obstacles, or a lake can make the battle with a dragon much more memorable - a black dragon swooping through the air which dives into a murky lake, only to emerge a few rounds later in a wave of water upon the players is much more memorable than one who crawls along the ground and is nearly as slow as the party's fighter.

Combat. Don't play a dragon foolishly here. Think about how your players would handle a party of enemies equipped like they are. Breath weapons should be used to maximum effect - go for the optimal target as ruthlessly as the players would. If its a wizard tossing spells at the dragon for tons of damage, cook him. If the battle turns into a war of attrition, cook the cleric. Rogues who can easily duck out of the way are sub-optimal targets, a dragon shouldn't bother using a breath on them more than once - anyone successfully ducking a dragon breath completely is going to probably be able to repeat it. Rogues should be dealt with by using melee attacks.

Odds are that parties willl spread out to avoid being clustered for dragon breath. Take advantage of this - engage them in a manner where only a couple of them can bring their attacks to bear at once. If they concentrate in a group to concentrate their attacks, remind them why its a bad idea with another blast of the dragon's breath weapon.

Don't forget the dragon's senses - invisibility shouldn't be an issue for dragons. On the other hand, letting the character think that the dragon doesn't know where he is can make for a very rude shock too.

Another nasty thing to do with hit and run attacks is to snatch up a creature, fly up a bit and drop it (remember that its a free action to drop things held in your hands ). Gravity takes care of the nuisance while the dragon turns to concentrate on another target.

Finally, dragons, even witout using superior tactics, are IMHO, probably the toughest creatures for a particular CR you will find (compare them to the CRs for giants or a character for example). They are much like rolling a powerful fighter and wizard into one package.