Dragons aren't that strong, are they?

A dragon, as we have pointed out, views time on a different scale than humans or even elves do. If you've lived 2000 years as a dragon, how many time must you have faced parties bent on taking your hoard? How many Magic Missiles, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and other spells have you faced? How many rogues have tried to flank you? How many Bane weapons have been used against you?

Odds are that parties willl spread out to avoid being clustered for dragon breath.

Odds are just as good that the dragon will try to reserve its breath weapon for use when the party is at a choke point...probably one of the beast's creation.

And its not just about fighting. Many such creatures would long ago have mastered the "art of fighting without fighting"- defeating their opponents before the first arrow is nocked. A particularly long lived and powerful one should be capable of terribly devious, manipulative tactics.

What is to prevent such a being from using his spells, familiars and allies (willing or unwitting) from controlling human organizations? Remember, powerful ones would even have shapechanging abilities. Why not have a polymorphed dragon as head of a city's Thieves' Guild?

Or imagine if you will, a dragon who actually makes up rumors of powerful treasures in a particular locale...and monitors who or what follows up on them- marking those brave enough and powerful enough to survive a particular goose chase, targeting them for culling, either personally or through agents. While loathe to part with any portion of a hoard, a wise dragon might deem it gold well spent to have some assassinations attempted if it meant preserving the greater body of the hoard.
 

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Aye, I don't really trust 3rd-party publishers to make balanced spells and magic items, at least not a majority of the time. I've seen some pretty crazy-powerful things done in 20th-level games by folks using a bunch of 3rd-party books of spells and magic items to make their characters invincible, for all practical intents and purposes (it would have taken direct combat with a deity or extremely-terribly-epic-level character just to stand the slightest chance of not getting 'owned' by those characters). Consequently, I don't game with those people anymore.

I haven't had any problems with dragons so far in my games..... They definitely have somewhat lower AC and attack bonuses than PCs of similar CR, but not too much worse, and they can be pretty effective if run properly (they have years to plan, and centuries or millenia to live! their concept of hasty thinking is generally similar to a human's longest-considered-and-most-thought-out plans! as others mentioned, retreat or repositioning for them is like a minor tactical adjustment. also, they have every reason to possess well-guarded lairs, with highly loyal minions and advanced traps).

They don't need to have plans based on metagaming, but just mere knowledge and experience. Dragons who survive to adulthood generally have decades, if not centuries, more experience in the world and its dangers than most adventurers ever accumulate, except possibly for veteran elves and dwarves and such. Some dragons are likely taught lessons by their parents, and dragons are born with intellect and sensibilities similar to a human adult's, so they learn fast. A dragon will gauge his or her foe in a brief skirmish or flyby, or through minions, and try to ascertain what kind of foe he or she is about to face; they will likely know some of the key signs of what foes are likely wizards, what ones are likely clerics, what ones are likely barbarians, what ones are likely rogues, and so on; by noting certain types of gear or action by the observed foes, the dragon will likely be able to guesstimate what exact kind of threat he or she should expect out of them later.

The dragon will likely try to wear them down or dishearten them before any direct confrontation; a brief fly-by breath weapon attack maybe, or a few of those, or a small force of minions sent out to harass the adventurers and one to follow those minions secretly and report back on what exactly happened and what the adventurers looked like. An evil dragon might attack a nearby town first, and goad or tempt the adventurers to go and help the town as it burns and draconic minions run amok; then the dragon will either attack briefly while they're distracted, or wait and see how many of their resources they spend in the effort, then determine the best time to attack. The dragon will make use of its superior natural senses and other abilities; it could even terrorize animals into a stampede that reaches the adventurers, and harms them or expends some of their magic in ending or surviving the stampede.

They will use terrain, weather, and other features to their advantage. They will know their hunting grounds like a human knows his own house. They're bigger and they live on a bigger scale; to a dragon, memorizing the landscape of a valley is like memorizing the layout of a house and yard, while memorizing the pitfalls and quirks and general denizens of a cave complex (or small forest, etc.) is like learning the nooks and crannies of a kitchen.

Dragons not only have much higher average mental ability scores than the PC races, they also live much longer and experience a lot more even before adulthood, so they have more time to develop their wits and lore into a series of elaborate and cunning plans, for use in the inevitable fights to come. They may not know the PCs from any other Puny Joe Human, but unless they're still in their first 2 age categories or thereabouts, they probably know the signs of what kinds of Puny Joe Humans the PCs are, by the looks and sounds of them. The dragon may have enough Spellcraft to notice what the PCs are casting when they fight his minions earlier, too. The dragon can likely guesstimate the general competency/power of the PCs based on their activities within his/her hunting grounds, as described by his/her minion spies/scouts or as seen in his/her own flybys (flybies?).

Kind of interesting and scary sidenote though: with the 3.0 core rules and the Psionics Handbook, a halfling psion can have AC 62 (69 in melee with against a single foe, 67 at the same time against multiple foes) at 17th-level onward, and that's not even considering the use of Polymorph Self, Metamorphosis, or similar powers, nor any artifacts of course. They'd be almost impossible for anything but the biggest-HD monsters to hit, though they'd have relatively mediocre or weak offense, and no real utility items (though a few utility powers). If not for the GP needed to properly own the magic and psionic items for that AC, the halfling psion could just as easily have that AC at 12th-level instead. AC 40-something would be easily doable at almost no GP expense for this psion at 12th-level (just buying ordinary or +1/+2 full plate and large shield, and maybe a +1 defending weapon and a +1 ring of protection; haste and barkskin potions could also be used instead or in addition).

Example: halfling seer psion 17; strength 14 (boosted to 19 with Maximized Animal Empathy; probably started as Str12 before natural increases applied at 4th and 8th level), dexterity 13 (boosted to 18 with Maximized Animal Empathy), constitution 14 (again, boosted with Maximized Animal Empathy, to 19), intelligence 13, wisdom 20 (base of 18 before increases at 12th and 16th level), charisma 8; feats would include Dodge, Psionic Dodge, Expertise, Maximize Power, and anything else they feel like; psionic items would include a Psychoactive Skin of the Hero and +5 Mithral Full Plate Armor, while magic items would include a +5 Animated Large Steel Shield, a +5 Defending Light Mace, a +5 Ring of Protection, one or more Potions of Haste, and one or more 12th-caster-level Potions of Barkskin; relevant psionic powers would include Animal Affinity and Shield of Prudence, but also helpful for non-AC defenses would be the powers Inertial Barrier, Displacement, Amplified Invisibility, Precognition, True Seeing, Fate Of One, Dimension Slide, Improved Biofeedback, Ubiquitous Vision, and Steadfast Gaze, and the character's offense would consist of such powers as Greater Concussion, Mass Concussion, Dissolving Touch, Recall Agony, Whitefire, Burning Ray, and Cone of Sound, also likely Emulate Power and Recall Death; the AC calculation would be 10 base, +1 size, +3 Dex (limited by the full plate), +13 armor, +7 shield, +5 dodge from the Defending mace, +5 deflection from the Ring, +4 haste from the Haste Potion, +3 luck from the Skin, +5 natural armor from the Barkskin Potion, +6 insight from Shield of Prudence, and in some conditions +2 to +7 dodge from feats; AC 62 to 69. The power Natural Armor could be substituted for Potions of Barkskin, but the AC bonus would be 1 lower. If the power Psychofeedback were used, and armor were abandoned, the AC could go higher from Dex-modifier-boosting but only for a few rounds, and at the expense of massive amounts of power points. If Oriental Adventures or other official 3E D&D books were added to the mix, there'd be even more AC boosting available, such as the Superior Expertise feat from OA.
 

IanB said:
One thing I will say is the ACs you describe seem out of line with all the various 3E games I've played in.

I don't think I've seen a 15th level fighter sitting at AC 32 unbuffed in one of our games (buffed, sure), and nobody is sitting at AC 45 even in our epic game.

Now, I'm not sure if the various groups I've played in are horribly behind the curve, but the sample sizes are large enough that I suspect they aren't.

If ACs are getting into that range because of heavy use of non-core content, then I think some of that is where your problem lies. Non-core stuff is largely cool and fun but it isn't always balanced, and the core CR system sometimes strains under the weight of the extra options.

EDIT: That goes double for 3rd party d20 stuff.

No, that's ALL core.
 


IanB said:
I don't think I've seen a 15th level fighter sitting at AC 32 unbuffed in one of our games (buffed, sure), and nobody is sitting at AC 45 even in our epic game.
I haven't played up to 15th level, but in my 9th level party I have a warforged fighter/cleric/juggernaut with AC 27 (armored body +8 +2 enhancement, shield +2 +1 enhancement, Dex +1, natural +2, deflection +1) and a soulknife that also has AC 27 (breastplate +5 +3 enhancement, shield +1 +2 enhancement, Dex +3, deflection +1, natural +2) that goes up to 29 when he's psionically focused and moves no more than 5 ft (substitution level replacement for Speed of Thoughts). Though I think both these are a little over-equipped for their level, especially the soulknife.
 


I have always run Dragons as being the Uber-BBG.. big bad and dangerous that the party steered clear of. I have a challenge session that I have occasionally ran {6 times to date} for when a player states that thier non-epic, legally built character can slay a dragon.
Admittably I pull out alot of stops in that session and have a number of RBDM style tricks up the Dragon's sleeve..but its TPK rate is currently 100% :]

Of course, my normal campaign caps out at 14th level and has a relatively low character wealth guideline. I prefer to focus on the 'enemy within us' type BBEGs, ranging from evil overlords, Vampires, Lycanthropes, Inspired, and just greedy people.

Despite that, in a normal game I think you could retitle this thread as "{insert monster here} arent that strong, are they?"
Many of the comments regarding how a DM should play dragons are equally valid for other creatures. The thing that annoys me most in a game is to have the party charge into the lair of an intelligent, predatory critter..and have it sitting there as if waiting to be XP fodder.
Then, adding insult to injury, these critters are often not run using thier strengths to thier advantage.
Check the 'Can Giant Ants scare 15th level party thread'.. most posters suggest amping up the critters via templates/advancements, etc.... much better to use straight out of the book and use thier tactical advantages..well, tactically :)

A fair number of games regularly have combat that are on favorable ground to the PCs. Nice open areas where manueverabilty is unlimited, no difficult terrain or obstacles, good LOS, and no ambushes from cover. The BBEG is rarely encountered right after a battle with minions, allowing the party to rest/re-buff as needed. When I am playing in this sort of game I feel somewhat cheated.

Dragons, especially older ones, should have the home turf advantage. Having survived this long they will realize that hard, short strikes spread out over time is better than a pitched battle.

Replace "Dragons" with "Vampire", "Lich", "Thieves Guild", "DragonMarked House"...
Same effect.
Add in some divination and means to encourage continued encounters.. managing a war of attrition would be childs play. Then strike when the party is worn down to finish the job.
 

frankthedm said:
Improved disarm puts the weapon in the dragon's possesion. Then fly away with the newest addition to the hoard.
Best dragon I ever ran used improved disarm to grab the weapon... and then swallowed it. The look on the player's face was priceless.
 

Piratecat said:
Best dragon I ever ran used improved disarm to grab the weapon... and then swallowed it. The look on the player's face was priceless.

:D *LOL* :) PC you are so damn evil. :) I love it.
 

I've personally used every tactic I mentioned, but my favorite was the dragon attacking the airship from below.

When the ship moved into the clouds, the dragon struck. It grabbed the ship from below, striking from the aft with tail sweeps, breathing lightning from the bow. When the PCs moved into better positions to strike back, it dropped off, back into the clouds...then attacked from above while they were looking down. The party was essentially saved by a lucky shot from a front-line warrior.

The second best was the dragon who used his illusion of a strafing run to draw attention to the front of the party, while strafing from the rear. They never saw it coming. When the party mage started slinging nasty spells, the dragon moved off, grabbed some boulders, and started high-altitude bombing. The party had a choice- send the mage airborne to do single combat with the dragon or retreat. The mage told them where they could go. (Home.)
 

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