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Dragons DR/magic=no Dragon DR

Kae'Yoss

First Post
I see no problem at all that that boy with his grandfather's +1 sword could damage the dragon if he would hit him. He still won't give the dragon any discomfort, because he won't hit.

  • Dragon's AC are quite high. You'll need more than a +1 bonus to your attack to overcome that.
  • Dragons aren't surprised by low-levelers, so the guys won't come into striking distance at all. The dragon just wipes them out. (if they're lucky, or if the dragon wants to play with them, they might be able to actually get through to the dragon)
 

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Sejs

First Post
Personally, I like it at X/Magic for normal dragon DR. It gives the DM the option of, if they wanted to make unique opponents to tweak it a bit. Like as has been mentioned, maybe a half-fiendish dragon that had 5/good in addition to the normal X/magic it enjoys. Even an experienced dragon hunter would have to be on their toes with that one. Your blade needs a magic edge to cut through dragonscales... something's wrong - this dragon is shrugging off blows that should have it already bleeding and thinking of retreat. Wait... is that thing *smirking* at us?


Also kinda makes me think back to Warcraft 2, Beyond the Dark Portal. One of the hero units the orcs could get was an elder dragon who had bolted adamantine plates to his scales. Encased in armor, he was damn near invulnerable. Even other dragons were in absolute awe of this wyrm.

Heh, I liked him.

^_^
 

satori01

First Post
KaeYoss said:
I see no problem at all that that boy with his grandfather's +1 sword could damage the dragon if he would hit him. He still won't give the dragon any discomfort, because he won't hit.

  • Dragon's AC are quite high. You'll need more than a +1 bonus to your attack to overcome that.
  • Dragons aren't surprised by low-levelers, so the guys won't come into striking distance at all. The dragon just wipes them out. (if they're lucky, or if the dragon wants to play with them, they might be able to actually get through to the dragon)

I think we all are quite aware of how powerful Dragons are.
My issue is not that the new 3.5 Dragon wont be a powerful mofo, it will, but rather a certain power gradation has been removed that I thought was both rules effective and flavorful.

The old 3.0 DR was similiar to a "you must be this tall sign", or a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign. Suddenly the Matterhorn is open to toddlers as well as adults.
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
satori01 said:


The old 3.0 DR was similiar to a "you must be this tall sign", or a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign. Suddenly the Matterhorn is open to toddlers as well as adults.

I don't mind that, for only the adults will reach the summit.
 

Sejs

First Post
The old 3.0 DR was similiar to a "you must be this tall sign", or a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign. Suddenly the Matterhorn is open to toddlers as well as adults.

This assumes the 'toddlers' can even connect with the dragon's quite formidable ac.

Think of 'em like cats. If you're not a threat, the dragon will play around with you, bat you about, pull damage and generally belittle you and turn you into a fleshing person-toy.


But the second you draw blood, playtime is over.


Sure, Billy Commoner with his grandpa's +1 greatsword may be able to get through dragon DR. And if he gets really lucky and rolls a natural 20, he'll even be able to do 2d6+1 damage to that dragon. But the moment that dragon's next initiative turn comes up, Billy Commoner's life ends. Abruptly.
 

Metalsmith

First Post
hong said:
Facts:

1. Dragons are mammals.
2. Dragons fight ALL the time.
3. The purpose of a dragon is to flip out and kill people.


Hong "loves dragons with all of his body (including his pee pee)" Ooi

Hmm, those sound like Ninja-Dragons.

Very Dangerous.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Already the DR arms race begins.

1. "DR/magic" is easy to bypass.
2. Dragons should be tough.
3. Tough creatures should have unbeatable DR
4. Therefore Dragons should have DR /something we think the players won't have--maybe DR/dragonbane or DR/something else.

This is faulty reasoning. Creatures don't need unbeatable DR in order to challenge PCs. Most of them do just fine without it. (And the assumption that DR/adamantium is unbeatable DR is also faulty--in 3.5e, Adamantium weapons are probably fifth on adventurers offensive shopping list: 1. Masterwork (then magical) cold iron weapon. 2. Oil of Bless Weapon. 3. Silversheen. 4. Scroll of Align Weapon. After that, a character just needs an adamantine weapon and he's prepared for all DRs).

Also, it's wrong to assume that the reduced 3.5e DR values prevent them from being deciding factors in combats. Having run a 6th level party fighting a greater elemental in 3e, I can tell you that, had they not had a +2 weapon, DR 10/+2 could have been spelled TPK. The lower numbers may be easier for some characters to deal with but they still make for significant changes to combats.

Incidentally, WRT supposed legends of dragons only being fought with special swords, here is what the author of Beowulf had to say about that:

When Beowulf was pressed hard by the dragon, Wiglaf came to his aid:

(2620) "And now the youth was to enter the line of battle with his lord, his first time to be tested as a fighter. His spirit did not break and the ancestral blade would keep its edge, as the dragon discovered as soon as they came together in the combat."

Beowulf however had less luck with his sword:

(2680) "Inspired again by the thought of glor, the war-king threw his whole strength behind a sword stroke and connected with the skull. And Naegeling snapped. Beowulf's ancient iron-grey sword let him down in the fight."

But Wiglaf again assisted him:

(2690) "Next thing, they say, the noble son of Weohstan saw the king in danger at his side and displayed his inborn bravery and strength. He left the head alone, but his fighting hand was burned when he came to his kinsman's aid. He lunged at the enemy lower down so that his decorated sword sank into its belly and the flames grew weaker."

Then Beowulf found the weapon that would kill the dragon

(2700) "Once again the king gathered his strength and drew a stabbing kinfe he carried on his belt, sharpened for battle. He struck it deep into the dragon's flank. Beowulf deat it a deadly wound. They had killed the enemy, courage quelled his life; that pair of kinsmen, partners in nobility, had destroyed the foe."

You'll notice several things here:

1. The low level fighter wielding "his grandfather's [+1 maybe--we don't know] sword" DID actually hurt the dragon.

2. The only named sword in this particular passage broke and didn't do anything particularly unusual to the dragon.

3. Beowulf slew the dragon with a blow from an ordinary dagger (and we know he wasn't power attacking b/c power attack doesn't work with light weapons).

These passages don't really indicate any kind of DR at all. (Although DR/magic would work as well--a powerful king like Beowulf would probably have a +1 dagger as a backup weapon). What was necessary in order to slay the dragon was courage and nobility--not a special weapon.
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
If anything, that DR x/magic makes dragons more dangerous. Cause low-leveler's'll think "hey, my +1 sword will cut throug that red great wyrm's DR like a hot knife through butter" and go off to get stepped on by that dragon. Loss of one dimension can really hurt.

Before , they've thought "oh no, he has DR x/+3, we cannot even harm the lizard. Wait until we are of higher level and have that big shiny magic sword +3"

:D
 

Fedifensor

Explorer
You know, if D&D 3.5 was a brand-new system that had never been played before, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The reason there are so many magic weapon in D&D is because previous editions of the rules required them. With 3.5, it becomes feasible to run a low-magic campaign without having monsters with DR being untouchable.

The above argument aside, I could easily be persuaded into giving ancient dragons DR/epic instead of DR/magic...
 

paulewaug

Registered User
You could always House Rule that DR/Magic works exactly as it did in 3.0 for things in 3.5 that have DR/magic,
or at least do it that way for Dragons.
 

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