D&D 5E Drop your weapons situation

[ArchfiendBobbie]

I'm confused by the people that say it can't be done. I get there's questions about whether it should be done, but that's a different question. In addition, as I said before, you'd be surprised by the number of people that would "rather die than surrender".

While it would be difficult to stop a high level group, it's not impossible. Simply throw more monsters. Throw multiple Tarrasques appearing in waves if you have to. To knock the PCs out instead of killing make sure that the last spell cast is not damaging, hit them with melee and knock them out or keep doing relatively small amounts of damage and have some NPCs casting Sleep spells ever other turn. Eventually it will work.

You do have to stop teleportation and other means of escape, something as simple as a Hallow spell will do that (be ready to counterspell depending on how you run it).

At a certain point it does break the unspoken rule of D&D that encounters should be "fair" in that the PCs should always have an option to win, or at least to escape to fight another day. Breaking that unspoken rule may upset some players.

It's not that it can't be done. It's that it's so monstrously difficult to do with the rules as written that you have to effectively pray the players go along with it. If they don't (and many won't) then your options can be easily limited to either beating them into submission and hoping they don't die or escape, or using GM fiat to railroad them.

Even for DnD, 5E is extremely bad for subduing people. Many other gaming systems, and even other editions of DnD, do it better.

 

[jasper]

Drop Weapon
3rd- transmutation
Casting time 1 action
Range 60 light years
Components Mental.
Duration Concentration up to a minute
Enemies drop weapons. Spell caster hands, lips, and eyes fall off.

 

[Syntallah]

+1 for endorsing 5e's new features, and recognizing rule 0.5: Because, players.

"Drop your weapons" makes sense in an '80s spy-thriller, because in theory, when a firearm is pointed right at someone, they're about to die. It doesn't make sense in a D&D game, because even an unarmored PC can have a pile of hit points, which means that under the combat rules, a Wand of Lead Slug Flinging cannot push a character into the death rules in the course of one round.

Did you catch the problem there? "Under the combat rules."

In D&D, someone loses hit points after combat has started, and after an opponent has made a high enough attack roll. However, if a character isn't in combat, then you don't need to worry about hit points, initiative, armor class, what-have-you. So if you tell the PCs, before anyone rolls initiative, "if you don't drop your weapons, you're probably going to die," well, rulings not rules.

#NotWotC

I have a house rule in place for something called an Unaware Attack. You could easily expand that to an obvious got-the-drop-on-you scenario:

Unaware Attack. Any attack made against an unaware opponent has Advantage on the attack roll, and if successful, automatically deals damage equal to a critical hit. If the damage total is greater than the target’s (base Hit Die + Constitution modifier + ½ their total Hit Dice), the target must make a System Shock roll with Disadvantage. [NOTE: I have upgraded the Rogue {Assassin} Assassinate class feature to compensate for this rule]

I use my own, slightly modified, System Shock table [Constitution check, DC 15]:

Failed
By Effect
10+ The creature drops to 0hp, and is dying

9 The creature drops to 0hp, but is stable

8 The creature is Unconscious until it succeeds at a Constitution check [DC 10]

7 The creature is Stunned until it succeeds at a Constitution check [DC 10]

6 The creature is Incapacitated until it succeeds at a Constitution check [DC 10]

4-5 The creature can't take Reactions, moves at half speed, and has Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the end of its next turn

1-3 The creature can't take Reactions, and has Disadvantage on ability checks until the end of its next turn

 

[Imaculata]

I once set up a scene in my pirate campaign in such a way that an undead pirate was holding a knife to the throat of some innocent damsel in distress, and demanded that the party dropped their weapons. Several players complied with his demands, but one of the players tried to disarm the pirate with a spell, before he could cut her throat.

I was very clear to my players regarding how I would rule the outcome: It would all depend on initiative, and whether the undead pirate would make his save or not. If the undead was first, the girl died before they could do anything. If the player was first, then he could cast the spell. But if the undead made his save, the girl would still die. The players agreed on the way I intended to rule it, and accepted the possible outcome should they fail... but they succeeded.

Since the uncertain outcome of this encounter was a cliffhanger for the next session, it kept my players in suspense for a whole week.

I think it is key to set up some clear and fair rules for such a situation, and to be ready to accept the outcome, which ever way it swings. Don't presume the players will surrender. So what happens if they don't, and is that an acceptable outcome?

 

[Oofta]

it depends on the definition of "it" is.

"it" as originally described is a sort of "drop your weapons" with a quick strike take down if you don't element. That does not work in a system with a large wear down mechanic beyond many of the lower levels *straight out of the book* and inventing a lot of stuff to make that event happen as planned adds a lot of fuel to the fires of "railroading rage."

The fact that it is all to put the players into a case of "no choice" GM runs is making it even more unsettling.

Nobody is disputing the issue as you describe (i think) that a Gm can add in more and more to create an encounter which overwhelms the party.

there are games which allow this kind of thing. Damage Save systems that have significant bonuses for surprise may well allow a case where you can be taken down with a flurry of attacks from surprise and pre-buffed enemies - particularly if an early de-buff hits you. those systems reflect the combat wear down differently, often with a strong edge to "ambush" and the odds start to work against you pretty quickly when you lose control of the situation. But DnD is not one of those games, out of the box.

and then there is the whole "should" thing.

It's not that it can't be done. It's that it's so monstrously difficult to do with the rules as written that you have to effectively pray the players go along with it. If they don't (and many won't) then your options can be easily limited to either beating them into submission and hoping they don't die or escape, or using GM fiat to railroad them.

Even for DnD, 5E is extremely bad for subduing people. Many other gaming systems, and even other editions of DnD, do it better.

The point of "surrender or die" is that there's always the option to choose the latter. It might take half a minute (in world time) in 5E, but it can be done.

There are spells that would accomplish this as well. A cabal of high level evil wizards could cast mass suggestion enough times to guarantee that everyone fails (you could probably do something to lower saves as well). Box everyone in a force cage, polymorph them all into slugs etc.

I agree with the "should". If you're going to do this you might as well do "you wake up in the morning in a cold, damp cell with no memory of the night before". Deus ex DM style. It would be upsetting to some players, others would go along with it if the story was worth it.

I once set up a scene in my pirate campaign in such a way that an undead pirate was holding a knife to the throat of some innocent damsel in distress, and demanded that the party dropped their weapons. Several players complied with his demands, but one of the players tried to disarm the pirate with a spell, before he could cut her throat.

I also had this happen once, except the big bad had a badly wounded PC incapacitated with a special cursed knife (they knew the knife basically disintegrated people, and resurrection doesn't work in my world). They still attacked.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I once set up a scene in my pirate campaign in such a way that an undead pirate was holding a knife to the throat of some innocent damsel in distress, and demanded that the party dropped their weapons. Several players complied with his demands, but one of the players tried to disarm the pirate with a spell, before he could cut her throat.

I was very clear to my players regarding how I would rule the outcome: It would all depend on initiative, and whether the undead pirate would make his save or not. If the undead was first, the girl died before they could do anything. If the player was first, then he could cast the spell. But if the undead made his save, the girl would still die. The players agreed on the way I intended to rule it, and accepted the possible outcome should they fail... but they succeeded.

Since the uncertain outcome of this encounter was a cliffhanger for the next session, it kept my players in suspense for a whole week.

I think it is key to set up some clear and fair rules for such a situation, and to be ready to accept the outcome, which ever way it swings. Don't presume the players will surrender. So what happens if they don't, and is that an acceptable outcome?

Ending the session before it was resolved was pure genius.

 

[GMMichael]

but, if some semblance of this approach of out-of-combat-bypass-all-damage-direct-to-dead was not agreed to explicitly before the game, this would be the point at which i thanked the GM and picked up my coat after handing him my character since "you obviously want to run the character more than you want me to."

It would take a few more occurrences of that (run my character) to make me walk out. I can handle one or two.

That being said, the Basic Rules lay it out pretty well in the Adventuring section:
(Paraphrased)
1. DM describes situation.
2. Players say what they want to do.
3. DM describes resolution.

Now, the DM can treat everything like a battle scene, and it drives me nuts when it happens. Because: miniatures aren't necessary for walking around non-combat scenes, I don't want to make a "check" for everything, and hit points are awkward. I have definitely held an opponent at arrow/sword point in the past, just to get drawn into a long combat scene because: hit points.

I was very clear to my players regarding how I would rule the outcome: It would all depend on initiative, and whether the undead pirate would make his save or not. If the undead was first, the girl died before they could do anything. If the player was first, then he could cast the spell. But if the undead made his save, the girl would still die. The players agreed on the way I intended to rule it, and accepted the possible outcome should they fail... but they succeeded.

This sounds like a good idea, simply because I got nervous just reading it.

I also had this happen once, except the big bad had a badly wounded PC incapacitated with a special cursed knife (they knew the knife basically disintegrated people, and resurrection doesn't work in my world). They still attacked.

The flip side of "because: players" is "because: DMs." The DM can have the most dramatic, awesome scene planned out and need a little rule zero to make it happen, but the players don't know that. All they see is, "there's a knife to our buddy's throat, and he'll die if we don't act."

 

[ExploderWizard]

The rules of 5E are not set up to handle this situation very well at all. While custom combat rules can be created to handle these situations, in order to be fair the PCs will get to make use of them also. Think about the consequences of the players using the rules to their advantage before implementing them. While as a DM you may only employ special capture rules sparingly, the players will arrange to set up situations where they can employ these rules whenever possible if they are actually effective and end conflicts quickly.

The majority of players will usually choose to go down fighting rather than surrender. A variety of factors contribute to this. The players do not like the the feeling of being powerless for the sake of some narrative. The game rules also make being revived from the dead fairly easy and consequence free so why not fight to the death? Some players would rather simply have a beloved character dead for good than have an annoying or hated NPC gloat over their capture. These types of factors will not be addressed by simply making the capturing force overwhelmingly powerful or even with the ability to one shot PCs. Players under such circumstances will simply smile, smack talk the bad guys and try to take down as many as they can before dying a heroic death, at least I probably would.

Best advice would be to not design scenarios in which the PCs MUST be captured. It is ok to have monsters or NPCs attempt to take captives if it makes sense to do so but avoid plot device tricks to engineer such outcomes.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

What level are we talking about here? Unless we are talking very low level there is likely to be at least one player that can escape the situation, especially since there is no longer dimensional anchor spells to keep people from popping out of the area.

Then you are stuck with most of the players sitting there as prisoners doing some role play chatting with their new hosts while one or more other players are running around causing grief.

 

[5ekyu]

The point of "surrender or die" is that there's always the option to choose the latter. It might take half a minute (in world time) in 5E, but it can be done.

There are spells that would accomplish this as well. A cabal of high level evil wizards could cast mass suggestion enough times to guarantee that everyone fails (you could probably do something to lower saves as well). Box everyone in a force cage, polymorph them all into slugs etc.

i do not think anyone is saying that you cannot as Gm throw enough power at a party to squash them if you want to using RAW. how about a million ancient red dragons armed with artifacts porting in with surprise!?!?!

but, something more like the kind of circumstance described is more difficult in this system than in some other systems which have not so ablation heavy combat structures.