D&D 5E Dropping Flyers Cheese

[Eejit]

I see the force cage issue as pretty clear cut.

Large = 10 by 10 ft. examples = Hippogriff, ogre
Huge = 15 by 15 ft. examples = Fire giant, treant
Gargantuan = 20 by 20 ft. or larger examples = Kraken, purple worm
From page 6 of the monster manual.

So any large creature will fit withing a 10x10 force box, any huge creature will fit withing the force cage option, and some but not all gargantuan creatures will fit withing the force cage option since some are "or larger".

PHB 191...

 

[SkidAce]

Using the rules as presented hardly counts as "good tactical thinking". And I really get tired of the "Think of their ego" excuse for playing monsters dumb. Any dragon which would have put their ego over their intelligence would have died at wyrmling stage.

I know plenty of people who put their ego over intelligence. and they are still alive....

 

[BigVanVader]

We need dragon lassos. Alternatively, you probably won't see a castle without a giant arbalest or three. Just remember to aim for the wings.

 

[Eejit]

You said that ruling that a Dragon based on grid size fits into a force cage is a house rule, and that wasn't RAW. So by RAW, what's the size of a Dragon then?

RAW is essentially silent on the physical size of a dragon as it only gives space controlled in combat.

If you like running the kind of inconsistent game where your players never quite know what's going on, and their most powerful spells are subject to your whim, more power to you. For the rest of us, there are grids and spaces.

It's not about what I like. I'm pointing out that people consistently call Force Cage immensely strong or overpowered as written, but this is due to a failure to appreciate the rules for size. It's a spell that often relies on DM adjudication to balance its lack of a save.

The rules are totally clear about space not equalling size:
"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them."

Obviously you're perfectly free to use grids and spaces to represent physical size if you like as a houserule, just then realise that doing so may make Force Cage too strong against certain foes.

 

[Dausuul]

When your players start throwing around Forcecage, you'll want something like Misty Step and/or counter spell. Unless you want to rule that a Dragon won't fit into a Force Cage based on ThoM instead of grid sizes.

I agree that forcecage is a serious issue for dragons. Misty step is one answer. Counterspell is less reliable, since it can itself be counterspelled and likely will be. However, this is how a real dragon deals with forcecage:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

(Though I think that spell is 8th level now, so you might have to up the dragon's stats a bit.)

Dragons also can't see into the Ethereal Plane, so you might run into issues with players using the Etherealness spell to buff up, or at least, scout through the Dragons lair, hence True Sight. Bard casts Etherealness on himself (he can move in any direction), pops out and then Otto's Irresistible Dance's the Dragon. It's basically screwed for a round.

Sure, you can Otto's the dragon. You cost it one round and maybe a shot of Legendary Resistance. Then what? It's a good, effective spell, but it's no game-ender.

Freedom of Movement is so they can't be easily grappled and pulled to the ground using Bigby's Hand...

Doesn't work. Bigby's hand has a limited speed. It can't keep up with a falling dragon. Per the grapple rules, any effect which moves a grappled creature out of the grappler's reach will break the grapple. So the hand loses its grip as soon as the dragon starts to fall, at which point the dragon's speed ceases to be 0 and it can fly again.

Dragon's out to hunt should have these spells active (they do not require concentration and last an hour), and Dragons in their lairs should have some sort of warning system that reaches into the ethereal plane allowing them to buff up and get ready.

That's a little much. A powerful dragon needs an answer to forcecage, and its lair should of course have adequate defenses, but it's easily capable of dealing with most spells without elaborate preparation.

 

[DaveDash]

I agree that forcecage is a serious issue for dragons. Misty step is one answer. Counterspell is less reliable, since it can itself be counterspelled and likely will be. However, this is how a real dragon deals with forcecage:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

(Though I think that spell is 8th level now, so you might have to up the dragon's stats a bit.)


Sure, you can Otto's the dragon. You cost it one round and maybe a shot of Legendary Resistance. Then what? It's a good, effective spell, but it's no game-ender.


Doesn't work. Bigby's hand has a limited speed. It can't keep up with a falling dragon. Per the grapple rules, any effect which moves a grappled creature out of the grappler's reach will break the grapple. So the hand loses its grip as soon as the dragon starts to fall, at which point the dragon's speed ceases to be 0 and it can fly again.


That's a little much. A powerful dragon needs an answer to forcecage, and its lair should of course have adequate defenses, but it's easily capable of dealing with most spells without elaborate preparation.

You basically ignored problem with Etherealness. It's a common spell, and it can the potential to give the party a surprise round. With Otto's that's two rounds of combat the party could get before the Dragon gets to act.

I know given two rounds of combat my party would chew up most Dragons. Even one round is huge, especially if you have a sharpshooter fighter in the group. Remember you can get your bless and such up while Ethereal, pop out, then really mess up that Dragons day.

The falling rule is open for interpretation I reckon. I think your ruling is valid, but I also think the hand being able to hold the Dragon in the air is also possibly valid. If it can hold it in place Dragon doesn't fall. This is also moot if you catch the Dragon on the ground or close to it (see Etherealness above).

Without these two spells you're leaving your Dragons wide open to be cheesed, I know because I've done it before.

 

[jrowland]

I been thinking about it some. If the wings are free but rendered inoperable (say a 1 broken wing, or "knocked prone", maybe webbed, etc) I would have the Dragon (or any physically flying creature) drop at some *reasonable* rate (Fly speed? Based on Size?) in a sort of parachuting manner. As such, the creature takes falling damage equal to (this rate * 1 round) if it contacts the "ground". In other cases, such as paralyzed, it immediately drops 500 feet, then 1000 feet/round thereafter, taking the appropriate falling damage (20d6 in most cases unless under 200' initially). Luckily for Dragons, 20d6 while devastating, is survivable. Good tactic team.

 

[DaveDash]

I ran a Dragon fight last night, still ongoing but near the end.

The players (all level 14) are fighting a CR18 Shadow Dragon (Adult Red) spellcasting variant on a sheer cliff face. The cliff has face has a few caverns on it, one of which is the Dragons lair. This region is also very close to the Shadowfel, so light and fire spells are extinguished, and dark shadows lurk like pools and puddles through the caverns.

Basically I was expecting this to be a pretty tough fight for my group (Paladin, Bard, Wizard, Cleric (Light)) due to lack of ranged power. What they ended up doing though is buffing the Paladin up like crazy (fly, bless, etc), then most of them just hiding out in a small cavern so they don't lose concentration.

Turns out a super buffed up Paladin (Haste, Fly, Bless, and potion of cloud giant strength) is pretty good at dealing with Dragons (he hit for around 70 slashing and 82 radiant in one round), although, the fight isn't over yet, and it's still touch and go for the group.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sure, you can Otto's the dragon. You cost it one round and maybe a shot of Legendary Resistance. Then what? It's a good, effective spell, but it's no game-ender.

Well, you also make him take falling damage, because dancing and flying are incompatible. (Speed 0 = no flight unless you can Hover.)

 

[KnightCa]

Contents
1 Basic Rules
2 Non-magical Tactics vs Flyers
3 Spell Tactics vs Flyers
4 Flyer Tactics

Basic Rules

If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of its ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell. - PHB pg191, under "Flying Movement"

• Falling creatures fall 500 feet on the first round, and a 1,000 feet every round thereafter.
• Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet speed, and capped at 20d6 (thus any height 200 ft+ is 20d6, average 70 dmg).

Grappling
* A grapple ends if the target is moved out of the grappler's reach.
* Grapple Houserule: For purposes of grappling, monsters with Str 15+ are treated as proficient in Athletics (Dex 15+ are treated as proficient in Acrobatics). This means you can use their attack bonus as a grapple check.

• Harpy +1
• Gargoyle +4
• Griffon +6
• Young Dragon +7 (large)
• Adult Dragon +11 (huge)

Physical Size: Grid sizes don't represent the physical size of a creature, just the space it controls on the battlefield. - PHB pg191 "A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them."

Dragons
* Spellcasting Variant: spells equal to Charisma modifier (max spell lvl = 1/3 CR round down) - MM 86

• CR 3 (1st lvl): feather fall (reaction, drops 60 ft/round)
• CR 6 (2nd lvl): misty step (bonus, get out of forcecage)
• CR 9 (3rd lvl): counterspell (reaction, blocks spell, 60 ft vs visible caster)
• CR 12 (4th lvl): freedom of movement (1 hour, blocks magical impediments)
• CR 18 (6th lvl): true seeing (1 hour, spots ethereal)
• CR 24 (8th lvl): Anti-magic (blocks all spells)

* Adult Dragons get Legendary Resistance 3/day (auto save).
* Dragon size - Draconomicon 3.5 pg56 (Large dragon weighs 2,500 lbs and is 31 feet long)

• Size Overall Length Body Length Neck Length Tail Length Body Width Standing Height Maximum Wingspan Minimum Wingspan Weight
• Tiny 4 ft. 1 ft. 1 ft. 2 ft. 1 ft. 1 ft. 8 ft. 4 ft. 5 lb.
• Small 8 ft. 2-1/2 ft. 2 ft. 3-1/2 ft. 2 ft. 2 ft. 16 ft. 8 ft. 40 lb.
• Medium 16 ft. 5 ft. 5 ft. 6 ft. 3 ft. 4 ft. 24 ft. 12 ft. 320 lb.
• Large 31 ft. 9 ft. 9 ft. 13 ft. 5 ft. 7 ft. 36 ft. 18 ft. 2,500 lb.
• Huge 55 ft. 16 ft. 15 ft. 24 ft. 8 ft. 12 ft. 60 ft. 30 ft. 20,000 lb.
• Gargantuan 85 ft. 24 ft. 23 ft. 38 ft. 10 ft. 16 ft. 80 ft. 40 ft. 160,000 lb.

Non-magical Tactics vs Flyers

• Grapple: Can fall with falling flyer. Otherwise, flyer can start flying as soon as grapple ends.
• Athletics (5th lvl, Str 18, +7) + Jump + Grapple: Allows jumping up to grapple a creature 16 ft in the air [(3+Str mod)+(6 ftx1.5)]. Success on Str+7 lets you bring the flying creature down to the ground without taking damage yourself (unless your speed is reduced to 0). A flying creature may hesitate to come lower than 20 ft off the ground, when seeing a muscular medium creature since the medium creature could jump around 15 ft high without magic.
• Shoving: Normally shoving can knock you prone (when standing on the ground). Since there is no ground under a flying creature, a shove would push it 5 ft lower if aimed down.
• Net (15 ft, attack with disadvantage, restrained): Only usable on large or smaller. If you can get within range and successfully hit, it's a great way to make a flying creature fall.
• Battle master + Longbow (150 ft) + Trip Maneuver (Large or smaller, Str sv, prone): Only usable on large or smaller. This maneuver requires a successful attack roll plus a failed Str sv for the flying creature to fall. Great method, since with two hand crossbows, a 3rd lvl battle master can make upto 3 attempts to trip a flyer. By 7th level, you could get 5 possible attempts in a round.

Spell Tactics vs Flyers

• No reactions allowed (such as Counterspell/Feather Fall), if cast during a surprise round.

Short range (30 ft or less):
* No reactions allowed (such as Feather Fall).

• Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1st lvl, 30 ft, Wisdom sv, prone & incapacitated): Great way to make a flyer fall. Doesn't effect creatures with less than Int 4 (such as Griffons).

Medium range (35 ft - 90 ft): may be beyond counterspell range (60 ft)
* Enlarge (2nd lvl, can grapple huge, adv Athletics) + Jump (1st lvl, allows x3 height) + Athletics (5th lvl, Str 18, +7) + Grapple: Allows jumping up to grapple a creature 39 ft in the air [3x(3+Str mod)+2x(6 ftx1.5)]. Success on Str+7 (advantage) lets you make the flying creature fall to the ground without taking damage yourself (unless your speed is reduced to 0). This tactic very likely requires the combined tactics of a spellcaster (with the right spells) and a trained grappler, along with some preparation (enlarge). A flying creature may hesitate to come lower than 30 ft off the ground, when seeing a large creature since a large creature could jump around 25 ft high without magic [(3+Str mod)+2x(6 ftx1.5)].
* Fly (3rd lvl, speed 60 ft): With this spell, would not need the jump spell and could follow the grappled falling target to the ground without taking damage (as long as he doesn't run out of speed). Since this is a concentration spell, you would need two spellcasters and a grappler to pull this off.
* Web (2nd lvl, 60 ft, Dex sv, restrained and falls for 1 round): Great way to make a flyer fall.
* No reactions allowed (such as Feather Fall).

• Hold Monster (5th lvl, 90 ft, Wis sv, paralyzed): Great way to make a flyer fall.
• Power word stun (8th lvl, 60 ft, 150 hp, no save, stunned): Great way to make a flyer fall, after softening up target. Finishing move if flying.

* No falling damage

• Command [Land] (1st lvl, 60 ft, Wisdom sv, On its turn target lands and then ends its turn): Good way to bring down a intelligent flyer that understands your language. However, doesn't cause any falling damage and doesn't keep them on the ground after this round.

Long range (95 ft +): generally can be cast beyond counterspell range (60 ft)
* Ensnaring Strike (1st lvl, oath of ancients paladin or ranger, must hit, Str sv [adv if Large], restrained) + Longbow (150 ft): This spell requires not only a successful hit, but then assumes a flying creature (mostly large+) will fail a Str sv (with advantage) and fall. A miss, does allow you to keep the spell going for later.
* Conjure Elemental [Air] (5th lvl, CT 1 minute, Str sv, prone): Cast ahead of time. With low strength, unlikely to trip a strong flying creature. Whirlwind vs Str sv may work to make a flyer fall.
* Bigby's Hand (5th lvl, 120 ft, contested Str +8, carrying capacity 1,560 lbs, speed 60 ft, grappled): The hand can hold a medium (or smaller) dragon in mid-air, but it can't keep up with a falling dragon. The hand loses its grip as soon as the dragon falls beyond 60 ft (it's speed), at which point the dragon's speed ceases to be 0 and it can fly again.
* Etherealness (7th lvl, 8 hours, can move vertically, possible surprise round) + Otto's Dance (6th lvl, 30 ft, no save, cant move): Great tactic make a flyer fall.
* No falling damage

• Earthbind (2nd lvl, 300 ft, Str sv, descends 60 ft/round): Great long range way to bring down a flyer. However, doesn't cause any falling damage.
• Forcecage (7th lvl, 100 ft, 20 ft cage, no save, trapped): Physical size must fit into forcecage dimensions, not just the area it controls on battlefield (a large dragon is too long).

Flyer Tactics

• Fly down + Grapple + Fly up (half-speed while grappling unless huge) + Drop: That means a wyrmling black dragon (speed 60) could fly down 20 ft, make a grapple check +4 to grab a PC, lift him up 20 ft, and drop him for 2d6 damage. If the wyrmling chose on the next round, it could use the dash action to lift the PC another 60 feet (total 80 ft), and then drop him for 8d6 damage (alternatively, it could lift him another 30 ft (total 50 ft), breathe acid on him (5d8, save for half), and then drop him for 5d6.
• Fly down + Breath Weapon + Fly up: A wyrmling black dragon starting at 45 feet off the ground, could fly down 30 ft, breathe acid, then fly up 30 ft (ending up 45 feet off the ground again). This could easily end up with it behind cover and requiring the PCs to use readed actions (reactions) that would limit their number of return attacks to 1.