D&D 5E Drow "Sunlight Sensitivity" workarounds?

[colincbn]

Ahh! Thanks for that!

I actually never realized that the original would be that nutty, but yeah I see how that would be the case. Thank the gods for Errata!

 

[colincbn]

Ahem. Torches come with severe built-in disadvantages. They make you visible to everyone, even outside darkvision range, for example. That means everyone can attack you at advantage with their ranged weapons.

A better analogy for snow goggles might be goggles of darkvision. I think the DMG calls them Goggles of Night, and rates them as Uncommon.

I'd probably allow a drow PC to fashion goggles good enough to let him see things that are in direct sunlight without penalty, as long as he isn't in direct sunlight himself.

Good points!

I can't think of a good anti-torch type thing at the moment, so yeah, not the best example. But a Light analogue (Gloom?), or a reverse Goggles of Night would be 100% fine in my campaign.

Side Note: My player just takes the disadvantage most of the time. Since he is a Warlock he is not so hot at making his own spells (such as an Anti-Light cantrip), and he is pretty good at using Poison Spray and such to avoid attack rolls. But whenever they are in combat in heavily wooded areas or alleyways I don't consider it direct sunlight anyway.
It does come up a lot during certain scenarios, but it is not constant. Also since he can use Darkness and he (eventually) took Devil's Sight, in tough outdoors battles where it does come into play he now has an out.

He plans on getting a magic item (or sapphire sunglasses) at some point.
Anyone who does not think sunglasses would be make-able in D&D would have a hard time explaining Glasstaff from LMoP I think.

 

[schnee]

The way I see it there is no difference between a surface dweller who gets disadvantage in darkness (as in all humans for example), and a Underdark dweller who gets disadvantage in sunlight.

All things equal, sure. But they're not.

Drow have more racial bonuses and abilities that justify the penalty.

If you're not seeing how powerful the Superior Darkvision is, then your DM is not running things right. All other characters (and most monsters) with Darkvision have disadvantage on Perception checks for double the range, which gives the Drow amazing stealth, ambush, and surprise-avoidance abilities. Having a Drow in a dungeon-diving party means never being ambushed.

Also, the vast majority of most campaigns are run in this environment. So, the Drow benefits from the Superior Darkvision far more than they suffer from the flaw. That is, unless you insist on running a Drow in an outdoors, sunlight-suffused campaign, which IMO is silly - they hate that stuff by nature. If you do, well, suck it up. Might as well run an Aarakocra in a mega-dungeon full of 10' hallways and complain about that.

All that is before you even get to the Drow Magic, which is as good or better than Magic Initiate - so they get a free feat, too. On top of all the other Elf benefits.

So, you're comparing one flaw against one strength without any context. That's not really fair. Races need to be considered as a whole.

 

[colincbn]

All things equal, sure. But they're not.

Drow have more racial bonuses and abilities that justify the penalty.

If you're not seeing how powerful the Superior Darkvision is, then your DM is not running things right. All other characters (and most monsters) with Darkvision have disadvantage on Perception checks for double the range, which gives the Drow amazing stealth, ambush, and surprise-avoidance abilities. Having a Drow in a dungeon-diving party means never being ambushed.

Also, the vast majority of most campaigns are run in this environment. So, the Drow benefits from the Superior Darkvision far more than they suffer from the flaw. That is, unless you insist on running a Drow in an outdoors, sunlight-suffused campaign, which IMO is silly - they hate that stuff by nature. If you do, well, suck it up. Might as well run an Aarakocra in a mega-dungeon full of 10' hallways and complain about that.

All that is before you even get to the Drow Magic, which is as good or better than Magic Initiate - so they get a free feat, too. On top of all the other Elf benefits.

So, you're comparing one flaw against one strength without any context. That's not really fair. Races need to be considered as a whole.

First off, as I said, it is not my character, and he does take the penalty most of the time (thanks for not reading the post you quoted, and telling me I don't run my games right).

Second, considering character creation mechanics while looking at things a player can do long after that is ridiculous. This is a story telling game. Yes game balance is important on some levels but it is not more important than telling a story that makes sense. If the initial character creation options are the only thing that matter for the entire life of the character, we are no longer telling stories, we are doing communal mathematics.

And I am not comparing one flaw against one strength, in context or out, I am comparing two flaws with each other. The Drow Sunlight Sensitivity and the Human Darkness Sensitivity.

As for comparing the respective strengths, it is the exact same situation: Drow Superior Darkvision gives the exact same thing as Human Superior Light Vision, just in the dark instead of in the light.

If humans can easily get around their vision based flaws with a cantrip so can drow.

 

[schnee]

considering character creation mechanics while looking at things a player can do long after that is ridiculous. This is a story telling game. Yes game balance is important on some levels but it is not more important than telling a story that makes sense.

Nope. A story telling game is Polaris, Dungeon World, Fiasco, Fate, or the like. Those are games where story is the defining thread of the game, and dice and odds and mechanics don't even have to exist.

D&D was created as a tactical combat mini-game that fed high level characters in to a literal Wargame. And, if you look at the mechanics, it's a straight line from OD&D to 5E. Things are resolved with dice and odds, not 'I want the story to be this way'. You attempt what you want to attempt, but the mechanics say how it happens, and the story is a by-product.

That's just it about games with dice: you don't tell the story, the dice do. Roll badly enough in the wrong places and times and your character dies senselessly, whether you want it or not.

And, that's why the long-term mechanical choices matter; if the game is 'we are going to kick in doors and kill stuff', then if you build a character that's all about courtly diplomacy then you're going to have a bad time. Same deal with a high-intrigue political game in Elven society with a 'dump CHA Goliath Frenzied Berserker'.

That's not implying you have to always mechanically optimize, but D&D is a flexible enough system, with enough 'crunch' underlying what your character does, that you have to make mechanical choices to play the character you want to play - and if you choose a fish out of water, you pay the price. Playing a Drow? Suck it up and role play your chosen disadvantage.

That's what our Drow does, BTW - we're not always in direct sunlight, but when she does she rages about it imperiously and tries to bully us to get out of it as soon as possible. It's hilarious, and she has fun, even when she's completely ineffective. But, when we get into darkness, she flips it around and then calls everyone else incompetent idiots as she saves our asses due to her amazing darkvision.

She gets it.

And I am not comparing one flaw against one strength, in context or out, I am comparing two flaws with each other. The Drow Sunlight Sensitivity and the Human Darkness Sensitivity.

You are still doing it wrong.

That is like comparing +2 Dex Wood Elf and a +0 Dex Dwarf whining "unfair!". That isn't how things are balanced. You have to look at the whole. All strengths, all weaknesses, and see how each race is better in some situations and worse in others.

But, if you choose to look at things arbitrarily, and out of context, and make unfounded complaints based on that poor logic, then that's your right, I guess.

 

[colincbn]

Nope. A story telling game is Polaris, Dungeon World, Fiasco, Fate, or the like. Those are games where story is the defining thread of the game, and dice and odds and mechanics don't even have to exist.

D&D was created as a tactical combat mini-game that fed high level characters in to a literal Wargame. And, if you look at the mechanics, it's a straight line from OD&D to 5E. Things are resolved with dice and odds, not 'I want the story to be this way'. You attempt what you want to attempt, but the mechanics say how it happens, and the story is a by-product.

That's just it about games with dice: you don't tell the story, the dice do. Roll badly enough in the wrong places and times and your character dies senselessly, whether you want it or not.

And, that's why the long-term mechanical choices matter; if the game is 'we are going to kick in doors and kill stuff', then if you build a character that's all about courtly diplomacy then you're going to have a bad time. Same deal with a high-intrigue political game in Elven society with a 'dump CHA Goliath Frenzied Berserker'.

That's not implying you have to always mechanically optimize, but D&D is a flexible enough system, with enough 'crunch' underlying what your character does, that you have to make mechanical choices to play the character you want to play - and if you choose a fish out of water, you pay the price. Playing a Drow? Suck it up and role play your chosen disadvantage.

That's what our Drow does, BTW - we're not always in direct sunlight, but when she does she rages about it imperiously and tries to bully us to get out of it as soon as possible. It's hilarious, and she has fun, even when she's completely ineffective. But, when we get into darkness, she flips it around and then calls everyone else incompetent idiots as she saves our asses due to her amazing darkvision.

She gets it.




You are still doing it wrong.

That is like comparing +2 Dex Wood Elf and a +0 Dex Dwarf whining "unfair!". That isn't how things are balanced. You have to look at the whole. All strengths, all weaknesses, and see how each race is better in some situations and worse in others.

But, if you choose to look at things arbitrarily, and out of context, and make unfounded complaints based on that poor logic, then that's your right, I guess.

Ok, so you are just insulting, fine, I can deal with that:

“The Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game is about storytelling in worlds of swords and sorcery. It shares elements with childhood games of make-believe. Like those games, D&D is driven by imagination. It’s about picturing the towering castle beneath the stormy night sky and imagining how a fantasy adventurer might react to the challenges that scene presents.”

This is literally the first paragraph of the PHB. So no You are doing it wrong, according to Wizards of the Coast. The people who make the game.

Except not really, because if you want to ignore the underlying premise of the entire game (remember the above quote is the very first thing Wizards tells new players), that is your right.

If you think Drizzt is a Mary Sue (he kind of is really) and you hate Drow, and will do anything you can to give the players who choose them difficulties no other player faces (not the difficulty of Sunlight Sensitivity, the difficulty of never being able to do anything about it even if it makes perfect sense story-wise), that is your business.
I think you are a crappy DM for that, but that is just opinion, not fact.

And yeah I actually played Chainmail a lot back in the 70’s before OD&D even came out, and if you are making your decisions based on that game why are you even using 5e anyway? Things have changed since then, that is the whole point of having multiple editions with different rules. If you don’t believe me read the first paragraph in the intro section of your PHB. Or just throw it out since you are apparently not playing D&D, you are playing homebrew Chainmail.

But maybe it is just that your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired, which could be why you still seem mistaken that I am talking about my own character.
As I have said twice now. It is not my character. Let me be clear: It, as in the Drow being played by a different person in the campaign I am running as DM, is not, as in the opposite of is, my character.
Understand? Or do you need it spelled out more simply?

And again, as I said, he takes the penalty whenever it comes up. He does not have any cantrips to deal with it, or anything else, and hopes to someday get a magic item that does.

You know magic items, which all, literally all, allow things that a character cannot do during creation. Every single magic item in the game, with no exceptions, allow characters to do things they cannot do at creation.

So go head and let your apparent dislike of a playable subrace that was put into 5e just like every other subrace be hampered by your own personal prejudices. Just don’t be surprised when people call you out on your hypocrisy.

 

[cmad1977]

Awful lot of sensitivity here that has nothing to do with the sun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[colincbn]

Yep.
People insulting me has a tendency to do that.

 

[schnee]

If you think Drizzt is a Mary Sue (he kind of is really) and you hate Drow, and will do anything you can to give the players who choose them difficulties no other player faces (not the difficulty of Sunlight Sensitivity, the difficulty of never being able to do anything about it even if it makes perfect sense story-wise), that is your business.
I think you are a crappy DM for that, but that is just opinion, not fact.

I have said nothing of the sort, so you're just putting words in my mouth.

You were saying it was unfair, and I was disagreeing because it's fair in the larger context of Drow capabilities.

And yeah I actually played Chainmail a lot back in the 70’s before OD&D even came out, and if you are making your decisions based on that game why are you even using 5e anyway? Things have changed since then, that is the whole point of having multiple editions with different rules. If you don’t believe me read the first paragraph in the intro section of your PHB. Or just throw it out since you are apparently not playing D&D, you are playing homebrew Chainmail.

I didn't mention Chainmail. You did. Putting words in my mouth again.

But maybe it is just that your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired, which could be why you still seem mistaken that I am talking about my own character.
As I have said twice now. It is not my character. Let me be clear: It, as in the Drow being played by a different person in the campaign I am running as DM, is not, as in the opposite of is, my character.
Understand? Or do you need it spelled out more simply?

Nothing I said related to the Drow being you. Again, you extrapolate imaginatively.

And again, as I said, he takes the penalty whenever it comes up. He does not have any cantrips to deal with it, or anything else, and hopes to someday get a magic item that does.

No, you were arguing the fundamental unfairness of that disadvantage because it's too much of one. I have always been taking issue with that argument.

You want to give a magic item to make it go away? Knock yourself out! Have fun! Gygax put those pink infra vision lenses all over the place in Vault of the Drow to allow Humans to function. Do the same thing, in reverse. It's your game. Why should we have to agree with your reasoning to do so?

 

[colincbn]

Ok, I assumed that when you mentioned the battle game that D&D came from you were talking about Chainmail, since that is what it was called.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game)

Please look up what the word "if" means.

I never once used the word "unfair", so it is you who are claiming people have said things they didn't. But honestly I can understand why you would think that. But what I think is wrong is not the fact the any race has any negative traits. It is singling out one to never be able to get over it.

You did imply it was my character. When you said this:
"If you're not seeing how powerful the Superior Darkvision is, then your DM is not running things right."
And this:
"That is, unless you insist on running a Drow in an outdoors, sunlight-suffused campaign, which IMO is silly - they hate that stuff by nature. If you do, well, suck it up. Might as well run an Aarakocra in a mega-dungeon full of 10' hallways and complain about that."
And this:
"and if you choose a fish out of water, you pay the price. Playing a Drow? Suck it up and role play your chosen disadvantage."

So just own it man.

And if you look back at any of my posts I never once said Sunlight Sensitivity was an unfair flaw. Just that not allowing a player to do anything about it is ridiculous.

And all this coming from a guy who's profile says he is DMing in a campaign in which:
"Each player gets a 'house rule' at 1st level that puts a unique twist on one of their character traits. It's a slight boost in power, comparable to half a feat."

That is just so mindbogglingly hypocritical I am at a loss for words.