DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[ouini]

DrSpunj,

Good catch. I meant d6, d8, d10, d12 cost 0, 1, 2, 3.

So powerful or combat feats cost 5, and general or expansion feats cost 3. Since I think pre-mapped abilities, and low-power prereq'd feats should cost less, feats which fall into one or especially both categories (like the Barbarian's pre-mapped 2nd and 3rd Rage per day ability/feats), cost less than a Fighter's Bonus Feat. I price them as general or expansion feats (3).

I noticed many of the costs I was using originally (weeks ago) were divisible by 2, which is why my costs are about half the original listed costs. Magic I'll likely price at 4 and 7 for half and full, but I'm still tinkering, not being as familiar with that system (thanks for the details you gave).

I do think the Druid/Ranger/Barb abilities, in the core classes, are pretty concrete feat paths. Now, I too liked that in 3E you can multiclass. But the thing about multiclassing I didn't like was the fact that the 1st level of many classes was where much of the power lay. (Want a truckload of abilities and amazing saving throws by 3rd level? Take three different classes). The thing I like about a la carte character levelling is that you get flexibility, without reckless freebies.

But if someone wanted to commit to being a Barbarian or Druid (or whatever well thought-out theme they came up with) for several levels, and committed to buying themed/expansion feats a few levels ahead of time, I'd likely drop the cost of those future, pre-mapped feats.

This rule sort of applies to Bardic Lore, as well. Actually, there are lots of abilities based on class level, though usually they're based on prestige class levels. Since a la carte purchasing doesn't have "classes" per se, just make sure players can't buy feats that don't fit their concept. Not all feats are general feats, after all. If I remember right, some can only be taken at first level. Some improve with / are limited by other bonuses (like expertise and power attack are limited by BAB). Personally, I'd probably make Bard Lore have Bard-like feat prereqs, and/or be based on applicable levels relative to their attainment, just like caster-level abilities or prestige-class abilities are.

 

[DrSpunj]

So powerful or combat feats cost 5, and general or expansion feats cost 3. Since I think pre-mapped abilities, and low-power prereq'd feats should cost less, feats which fall into one or especially both categories (like the Barbarian's pre-mapped 2nd and 3rd Rage per day ability/feats), cost less than a Fighter's Bonus Feat. I price them as general or expansion feats (3).

Hmmm. That's interesting. So the first feat, or a significant add-on ability, would cost more, but upgrades would cost less. Hmmm. I like that! Definitely a different way to classify abilities than I'd originally done, but it may very well work better.

Now it's just a matter of opinion on what's an add-on and what's an upgrade. Mind if we work on the Bard as an example? Let's try to flesh these out as much as possible. May need to use different terminology for the feats since we're categorizing them differently than Combat & non-combat. Not sure what to use though...what about "Base" and "Expansion"?

Bardic Music
Prereq: Caster Level >0, Perform 3 ranks
Allows 1 song per level per day. Choose one "song" from: Inspire Courage +1, Countersong, Fascinate to start with. Others may be gained with the appropriate Expansion feat.
Cost: Base
Notes: So this is obviously a base. I know I originally started with Inspire Courage as the freebie here, but it seems natural under this expansion classification that any of the 1st level songs could be taken for free with the others being picked up as Expansion feats.

Bardic Lore
Prereq: Bardic Music
Allows Lore checks with a +1 bonus/level
Cost: Base
Notes: Bardic Lore is certainly not a Combat ability, but it is definitely an "add-on" or "new" ability from Bardic Music so under your classification I see it as costing more. By taking it at low levels you enjoy it's power over the lifetime of the PC. By taking it at high levels you start using it with a hefty +Level bonus. Either way, I think it's worth the higher cost. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not unreasonable to consider it an expansion power from Bardic Music but then I'd only allow the bonus to accrue from the time you took the feat, not your class level. By that I mean, if you took it at level 1, by level 20 you'd get a +20; if you took it at level 18, by level 20 you'd get a +3. That's far more consistent with Core but is a snitch more bookkeeping.

Spellsong
Prereq: Bardic Music
Allows you to ignore/reduce Arcane Spell Failure by up to 10%.
Cost: Base

Inspire Courage
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranks
Allows use of the Inspire Courage song. Starts at +1. Every 6 levels can be taken again to increase the bonus by 1.
Cost: Expansion

Countersong
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranks
Allows use of the Countersong song.
Cost: Expansion

Fascinate
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranks
Allows use of the Fascinate song.
Cost: Expansion

Inspire Competence
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 6 ranks
Allows use of the Inspire Competence song.
Cost: Expansion

Suggestion
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 6 ranks
Allows use of the Suggestion song.
Cost: Expansion

Inspire Greatness
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 12 ranks
Allows use of the Inspire Greatness song.
Cost: Expansion

Song of Freedom
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 15 ranks
Allows use of the Song of Freedom song.
Cost: Expansion

Inspire Heroics
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 18 ranks
Allows use of the Inspire Heroics song.
Cost: Expansion

Mass Suggestion
Prereq: Bardic Music, Perform 21 ranks
Allows use of the Mass Suggestion song.
Cost: Expansion

Well, that wasn't too bad. It worked out rather well, if a bit simplistic because the Bard really only has his songs.

Alright, maybe I'll try the Barbarian next since he's a bit more varied...

I noticed many of the costs I was using originally (weeks ago) were divisible by 2, which is why my costs are about half the original listed costs. Magic I'll likely price at 4 and 7 for half and full, but I'm still tinkering, not being as familiar with that system (thanks for the details you gave).

Good, that's also very close (doubled) to my values of 9 & 14. At least we're working along the same lines.

The thing that prevents me from cutting the points in half as you have done keeping the Save paths. By switching to the "you get so many free +1's to your saves" each level you've bypassed that. I honestly I don't think I like it as well, but it's not overly complicated and using less points to allocate at each level is very appealing. I'll think about it. It certainly is a lot more versatile.

But if someone wanted to commit to being a Barbarian or Druid (or whatever well thought-out theme they came up with) for several levels, and committed to buying themed/expansion feats a few levels ahead of time, I'd likely drop the cost of those future, pre-mapped feats.

What do you mean by "a few levels ahead of time?" If you mean paying points now for abilities you don't get until later, well, that's not something I much care for. What I most like about the methodology we're using is that you get an immediate benefit wherever you spend your points. I do think paying more up front to open the door to a set of related abilities makes a lot of sense, and I want to keep pursuing it and see how it works out, but that's about all the "investment" I'm willing to buy (or offer, as the DM).

Personally, I'd probably make Bard Lore have Bard-like feat prereqs, and/or be based on applicable levels relative to their attainment, just like caster-level abilities or prestige-class abilities are.

I think I'm leaning towards this as well. As I said above with the Bardic Lore feat, which also fits for Bardic Music, someone using this character system is going to have to keep track of when they purchased each class ability. You can only take Sneak Attack every other level, so you have to know if you took it last level or the level before. That's the most basic example I can think of, and not all that difficult for someone to remember, but what if you're looking at the Barb's DR which is every 3rd? Or his extra Rages at every 4th?

The Core character sheet has that long open column on the back for Feats & Special Abilities. With this system I see people using that to keep track of specifically which level they took their abilities. I think I'm really warming to the idea that certain abilities will scale with character level, but only count the levels after you take the ability. That is, if you take Bardic Lore at 1st level you'll have a nice +20 bonus at 20th; however, if you waited until 11th level to pick it up, you'll max out with only a +10 bonus at 20th level.

Bardic Music would work the same way since it offers 1 song per level. That probably shouldn't allow someone who takes Bardic Music at 20th level to all of a sudden get to play 20 songs a day. Instead, they should be limited to just 1 song.

Thanks for the input, ouini! I really appreciate the sounding board. Things are definitely improving and headed in the right direction, I think!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Also, just as the base hit die (d6) and base skill points (4 per level) cost absolutely nothing, I'm tinkering with regular saving throw progression (one save gets to +18 at 20th, the other two get to +6) costing nothing. This works out to giving two +1's at odd levels, and one +1 at even levels, for free.

Okay, I've been mulling this over for a bit, and here's what I'm proposing:

You admit that a d6 and 4 SPs/lvl cost nothing, yet with what you've outlined for saves you're offering at least 1 Good save progression for everybody. Commoners (my "what's the worst it could be" metric) don't get any Good saves, they're stuck with all Poor saves. Three Poor saves nets you a +6 at 20th level for each save (actually +6.66 under the fraction system) which, multiplied by three, gives you a total of +18 (with fractions it's even better since it exactly equals 20! ).

So instead of your "two +1's at odd levels and one +1 at even levels" I'm thinking that should be a flat, simple, free +1 to any save you want at every level. That's it.

Anything more/better you have to pay points for. You also can't have any save greater than [(half your level) +2] (rounded down, of course). That keeps a lid on anyone's best saves and yet still allows for a save progression very close to Core's, regardless of how many points are spent. Furthermore, at 1st level you are thereby allowed to spend 1 point for a +1 to any save up to the formula-calculated maximum of +2. Voila!

Whaddya think?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

PS. I still have to think about how Defense goes, but I expect it would work exactly the same. Just haven't thought through all the repercussions there....

 

[ouini]

What I mean when I say someone can commit to a thought-out theme for several levels (and commit to buy themed feats a few levels ahead), I meant to say they're presently *commiting* to buying certain feats later, not that they're presently *paying* for later feats. If, upon reaching a level they said they were going to buy feat X and Y at, and decide instead that those feats wouldn't be fun to play for them, then I don't see why they couldn't drop X and Y and instead go with Z (at full cost). I also like getting immediate benefit where you spend points.

Some things (like Barbarian DR and Rages, and Rogue Sneak Attack) can be worded to preclude needing to track the level at which they were bought. S.A., for instance, was originally made with the understanding that an extra die of damage weighs about the right amount at 1st level, and 3d6 weighs about right at 5th level. So, just give the +1d6 sneak attack feat a maximum xd6 value of level / 2 or some such. Give the Barbarian DR a maximum value of level / 5 or so. Rage, level / 4 (or one more than that). You get the idea.

The Bardic Lore feat is tricky, but not terrible. Like you imply, what's the difference between keeping track of a few class levels, and instead keeping track of a few feat-gained levels?

 

[ouini]

I admit I don't know squat about commoners. Didn't know they were a real (NPC?) class, rarely use anything like them, and in any case never go to the trouble of rolling them up/buying them in detail. If you do, and commoners get d6 HP (not d4?), and get 4 SPs/lvl (not 2 SPs?), then for consistency's sake you would probably want to give them just +1 to a save per level.

I don't / probably wouldn't limit saves to [(half your level) +2, rounded down]. I'd let anyone who wants uber-saves to buy them up, the only cap being +2 at 1st level, and +1 at later levels. That seems simpler, but to each his own!

I'm not locked to any system yet, so this sort of back and forth is handy. Keep it coming!

 

[DrSpunj]

...I meant to say they're presently *commiting* to buying certain feats later, not that they're presently *paying* for later feats.

Okay, then I think we're on the same page. To "enter" a theme costs more since you're opening the door to an entire new set of abilities, hence the higher cost of a Base feat (do you have better name?). Once in there, if you're just really expanding what you can do with that ability, then Expansion feats cost less. OTOH, something that is more powerful in that theme and/or is an entirely different set of abilities, even if closely related to the theme, starts out again at the higher cost.

This method breaks away from "class" and instead focuses on abilities being grouped into different "themes". I like that.

...can be worded to preclude needing to track the level at which they were bought. S.A., for instance.... You get the idea.

I think so. You still have to pay for each upgrade, though, right? Whatever the Expansion feat cost is? So it is possible to pick up 3d6 of Sneak Attack in a single level as long as you're at least a 5th level PC and have enough points to buy a Base feat (for SA @ 1d6) plus 2 Expansion feats (for +2d6, total of 3d6). Correct?

 

[DrSpunj]

No one really messes with Commoners, but they are the built-in "worst case scenario" for character generation. In Core they do, indeed, have a d4 HD and only 2 SPs/lvl, but IMC I'm raising those lows to d6 & 4 SPs/lvl. They get a Poor BAB, all bad saves, no special abilities and are only proficient with a single Simple weapon (no armor/shield profs). I'm very interested in having that be what this system generates if you have absolutely no CBs to use. It keeps things internally consistent, IMO.

Offering a single, flat +1 to any save at every level isn't exactly like a Core Commoner, but it's more than close enough for gov't work, IMO.

I don't / probably wouldn't limit saves to [(half your level) +2, rounded down]. I'd let anyone who wants uber-saves to buy them up, the only cap being +2 at 1st level, and +1 at later levels. That seems simpler, but to each his own!

Damn. You always seem to be able to turn exactly what I say into something much simpler and/or user-friendly.

Alright, screw the formula. Here's the rules for saves:
1) +1 to any save at each level (including 1st)
2) 1 CB = +1 to any save
3) Max per level for each save is +2 at 1st & +1 thereafter

Good? The way #3 is worded someone could actually end up at 20th level with a base +21 to all three saves, but as you say, if that's how they want to spend their CBs more power to them.

I think that allows me to downgrade my costs to match up with yours, so it should drop the CBs involved (even at 1st) by at least half. I'll rebalance the Core classes when I find some time (maybe tonight), then move on to AU (and the Expanded Psionic Handbook whenever mine gets shipped! :\ )

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Okay, here's a quick try at the Barbarian's abilities. Please help me flesh these out as the prerequisites here are quite a bit tougher than the Bard's.

Rage
Prereq: Fort save +2
Allows use of the Rage ability 1x/day. May be taken more than once allowing additional uses per day but maximum limited to (1+Level/4) (round down).
Cost: Base
Notes: I'm a bit flexible on the Prereqs here, but I don't think it should necessarily be tied to HD, BAB or most other things. I could see a minimum Con requirement of something fairly low like 13+. Any ideas?

Fast Movement
AU equivalent: Fleet of Foot
Prereq: ??? Ceremonial Feat: Truename
Grants +10 to Base Speed if not encumbered by Heavy Armor or a Heavy Load.
Cost: Base
Notes: Again, the Prereqs need to be worked out. Minimum Dex 13+ makes a bit of sense since the ability doesn't work if you're overly burdened (and Dex is limited in the same situations). I could also see the Con 13+ again since maintaining that extra fast pace all the time is a pretty good mark of physical fitness. Any ideas? [EDIT: Monte's Fleet of Foot doesn't have anything beyond being a Ceremony, and doesn't limit the feat with heavy armor or encumbrance either]

Uncanny Dodge
AU equivalent: Intuitive Sense
Prereq: Dex 13+, Truename
Allows use of the Uncanny Dodge ability.
Cost: Base
Notes: Hmm, the Prereqs are killing me here. The ability says "to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so". I can see tying that into Wis 13+ or a Reflex save or Dex 13+. Not sure, but it should be something pretty easy for both the Barbarian and Rogue to get at very low levels (though I'm not worried about it being exactly like Core; I think both the Barb & Rogue should get Uncanny Dodge at about the same time, personally). [EDIT: Again, Monte only requires a Truename making this a Ceremonial feat, but I personally like the Dex 13+ since it only helps those who have a positive Dex modifier.]

Trap Sense
Prereq: Uncanny Dodge
Allows use of the Trap Sense ability. May be taken more than once increasing the bonus by +1 each time, maximum Level/3.
Cost: Expansion

Improved Uncanny Dodge
AU equivalent: Improved Intuitive Sense
Prereq: Dex 13+, Truename, Uncanny Dodge/Intuitive Sense
Allows use of the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability.
Cost: Expansion
Notes:: EDIT: Going back through AU, Monte doesn't even have a Dex requirement or a level requirement here, just the Truename so it's a Ceremonial feat again.

Damage Reduction
Prereq: ???, 4th level
Allows use of the Damage Reduction 1/- ability. May be taken more than once increasing the DR by +1 each time, maximum of Level/4.
Cost: Base
Notes: Prereqs again here have me stymied. The only other Core class/PrC with DR I can think of OTTOMH are Dwarven Defenders, who also get Uncanny Dodge at an earlier level, as well as a Rage-like ability. Still, I'm not sure those are links I want to force/hard-code. They each make some sense, and DR is a pretty hefty benefit, so I want some tough prereqs.

Greater Rage
Prereq: Rage, 11th level
As the Greater Rage ability.
Cost: Expansion

Indomitable Will
Prereq: Rage, Greater Rage, 14th level
As the Indomitable Will ability.
Cost: Expansion

Tireless Rage
Prereq: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, 17th level
As the Tireless Rage ability.
Cost: Expansion

Mighty Rage
Prereq: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage, 20th level
As the Mighty Rage ability.
Cost: Expansion

Probably try the Druid next.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Hey-ho.

I'm afraid I'm not following much of what you and Ouini are working on right now.....in part because I'd like to stick to Core....and in part because I know how "assigning points to abilities" can be of dubious value. (Seriously.)

Still, it's fun playing with your spreadsheet, DrSpunj, expecially when everything is simple and transparent!

I took the liberty of putting a "Comparison Calc" at the top of the sheet, so I could see, at a glance, how the core classes compared with each other. As I mentioned before, I'm ignoring the AU classes (for familiarity's sake). I've also removed the Defence Bonus (that is: set cost to zero), as that's not interesting to me (YMMV, of course!). I've also restored the skill points per level to the Core values. Finally, I'm not going to try to address the "point value" of different skill lists, spell lists, and spell casting types. To really get a handle on the balance, that'll have to be done! Maybe some other time.....

...*Anyway*....

It seems pretty clear that most classes fall into a narrow range. That's good! (and expected, right!!?)

Except the Ftr, of course.

But when you give Ftrs 4 skill points per level (instead of 2), and an extra few feats (1 per level!), they are much closer to the mean of all classes. They are still, however, on the bottom. Average CBs for the Ftr are 14.3, a distinction they share with the Rog and the Pal. Compare that to the Drd (20.9) and the Rgr (21.1). Ah well.

So: we change the Ftr, eh?

 

[ouini]

For themed feat sets, I figure you're paying base cost for the first feat in a series. If the player puts enough thought into hir character to come up with a theme (woodland, cavalry, whatever) and explains what feats are in line in the coming levels, then later related feats only cost expansion cost. It wouldn't cost more to enter a theme than it would to buy feats on the fly, though. I think we're both saying the same thing.

As for picking up 3d6 of Sneak Attack in a single level ... it's up to the GM. Personally, I think I'd differentiate PRE-requisites from CO-requisites. I'd be okay with a 5th level character buying +1d6 at 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, but not so okay with a 5th level character buying 3d6 at once. But that's just me.

As far as Commoners go, I have no trouble with them having d4 HD and only 2 SPs/lvl. But it's unlikely I'll ever sit down and create some, so it's moot!

And I realize now that my math was off for saves (gasp!). A fighter doesn't get +18 FORT at 20th level, does he? He just gets +12. That and two +6s makes +24 total. So +2 at 1st, and +1 every level after (free), is about right.

As for Rage, et al, I don't know. I would more likely tie things which are presently class-related themes, to other theme-related feats. You're a barbarian from a primitive war-culture? Sure, you can get Rage and Fast Movement if you buy them together, and plan on getting on the Uncanny Dodge and DR paths later, and of course the Rage expansions. You're a Half-Orc shock trooper? Sure, you can get Rage and Unarmed Combat if you buy them together, and plan on Rage and UC expansions. That kind of thing. If the idea sounds sound, allow it. If it's pure munchkinism, don't.

I don't think anyone who realizes they can buy +1 to reflex save for one point will buy any kind of Trap Sense as a feat.