DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[DrSpunj]

I'm afraid I'm not following much of what you and Ouini are working on right now.....in part because I'd like to stick to Core....and in part because I know how "assigning points to abilities" can be of dubious value. (Seriously.)

Well, realize we're only really categorizing feats into two types. Originally I was using Combat & non-Combat, while ouini has tried organizing instead along themes and has a Base cost and an Expansion cost. If you're truly going to use the sheet to see how things balance the classes you really must use some sort of guideline to compare abilities. After all, is Nature Sense really equivalent in value to a Fighter Bonus feat? In your opinion, it may be, but it's a question that needs to be answered.

Still, it's fun playing with your spreadsheet, DrSpunj, expecially when everything is simple and transparent!

Thanks!

It seems pretty clear that most classes fall into a narrow range. That's good! (and expected, right!!?)

Usually that's true, though depending upon how you organize/classify the class abilities, some are definitely out of whack. As you noted the Druid & Ranger both come out looking pretty good. With the Druid I'm sure that's accurate. With the Ranger, well, I'd agree that he's a bit on the high side, but not so much as the Druid, IMO. The Bard also can look too good depending on how you organize his abilities.

Except the Ftr, of course. So: we change the Ftr, eh?

I am! I'll see how things turn out after playing with ouini's ability classifications, but so far they are working well. I'm almost done with Druids...

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

It wouldn't cost more to enter a theme than it would to buy feats on the fly, though. I think we're both saying the same thing.

Yeah, we're just going about it differently. You're going to look at things "on the fly" and reward a good concept. That works really well as long as you're willing to step in and tell the player you don't agree with the association they're trying to make and therefore this feat is going to be more expensive than they were originally planning on. I, OTOH, would prefer things to be structured quite a bit more and am more interested in feat trees that make sense and are internally and externally consistent. My way means quite a bit more work, of course...

And I realize now that my math was off for saves (gasp!). A fighter doesn't get +18 FORT at 20th level, does he? He just gets +12. That and two +6s makes +24 total. So +2 at 1st, and +1 every level after (free), is about right.

Umm, yeah, I noticed that! But I figured you were doing things differently than I was. I'm still going with the rules I outlined before so that no points gets you a commoner. In your world all the commoners are a bit beefier, is all.

I don't think anyone who realizes they can buy +1 to reflex save for one point will buy any kind of Trap Sense as a feat.

Ah, right. Well, both Trap Sense and the +2 Save feats (GF, IW, LR) do have an inherent advantage as they can be used to "catch up" a save you've neglected for a few levels and need to pump (since you can't put more than a +1 into a save at every level) and/or to push a save over the maximum even on a save you've kept maxed out. But you're right, I may have to expand its abilities or dump it entirely. We'll see.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Here's what I got for the Druid abilities:

Nature Sense
Prereq: None
+2 on Know(Nature) & Survival checks and allows use of the Wild Empathy ability.
Cost: Base
Notes: As this is the entry feat I'm using for a Nature type theme this would be a bit overpriced as a Base feat, IMO, without absorbing Wild Empathy to make it more worthwhile. Neither are spectacular but definitely beneficial to a Nature lover. The fact that the Ranger will benefit by combining the two Core abilities doesn't seem out of place to me given how much the Ranger benefits from Know(Nature) & Survival checks and the fact that his points are already spread pretty thin.

Animal Companion
Prereq: Caster level >0, Nature Sense
Allows use of the Animal Companion ability. Your caster level is used to determine your Animal Companion's abilities.
Cost: Base

Woodland Stride
Prereq: Nature Sense
Allows use of the Woodland Stride ability.
Cost: Expansion

Trackless Step
Prereq: Nature Sense, Woodland Stride,
Allows use of the Trackless Step ability.
Cost: Expansion

Resist Nature's Lure
Prereq: Will save +4, Nature Sense
As the Resist Nature's Lure ability.
Cost: Expansion

Venom Immunity
Prereq: Fort save +6, Nature Sense, Wild Shape
As the Venom Immunity ability.
Cost: Expansion

A Thousand Faces
Prereq: Caster Level 13+, Nature Sense, Wild Shape
As the A Thousand Faces ability.
Cost: Expansion

Timeless Body
Prereq: Caster Level 15+, Nature Sense, Wild Shape, A Thousand Faces
As the Timeless Body ability.
Cost: Expansion

Wild Shape
Prereq: Caster Level 5+, Nature Sense, Animal Companion
Allows use of the Wild Shape ability 1x/day allowing you to change into Animals of your size or one size smaller. May be taken more than once allowing additional uses per day but maximum of Level/3 per day.
Cost: Base

Wild Shape - Size
Prereq: Caster Level 8+, Nature Sense, Animal Companion, Wild Shape
Grants the ability to Wild Shape into Animals of one additional size category (either larger or smaller) than your current size range which must be selected at the time the feat is chosen. This feat may be taken more than once and each time increases the size range by one step, but cannot be taken more often than every 4 levels.
Cost: Expansion

Wild Shape - Type
Prereq: Caster Level 12+, Nature Sense, Animal Companion, Wild Shape, Wild Shape - Size
Grants the ability to Wild Shape into Plants or Vermin (must choose which at the time the feat is chosen) of appropriate sizes for her Wild Shape abilities. May be taken again to allow both types.
Cost: Expansion

Wild Shape - Elemental
Prereq: Caster Level 16+, Nature Sense, Animal Companion, Wild Shape, Wild Shape - Size, Wild Shape - Type
Grants the ability to Wild Shape into an Elemental of appropriate sizes for her Wild Shape abilities 1x/day. May be taken more than once allowing additional uses per day but maximum of Level/6 per day.
Cost: Expansion

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

And here's what I ended up with for the Ranger:

Favored Enemy
Prereq: Track, BAB 1+
As the Favored Enemy ability. May be taken more than once granting another Favored Enemy at +2 and increasing one of your Favored Enemy bonuses by an additional +2, but can't be taken more often than Level/4.
Cost: Base

Combat Style
Prereq: per DM
As the Combat Style path outlined in the PHB or something similar worked out with your DM. This allows for cheaper bonus feats at levels 6 & 11.
Cost: Base

Improved Combat Style
Prereq: 6th level, Combat Style, per DM
As the Combat Style paths.
Cost: Expansion

Combat Style Mastery
Prereq: 11th level, Combat Style, per DM
As the Combat Style paths.
Cost: Expansion

Swift Tracker
Prereq: Endurance, Nature Sense, Track, Woodland Stride
As the Swift Tracker ability.
Cost: Expansion

Camouflage
Prereq: Sneak 12 ranks, Nature Sense
As the Camouflage ability.
Cost: Base

Hide in Plain Sight
Prereq: Sneak 15 ranks, Nature Sense, Camouflage
As the Hide in Plain Sight ability.
Cost: Expansion

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Here's the few for the Cleric:

Domain Power
Prereq: Caster level 1+, Must worship Divine Source or per DM
As the Domain Power. May only be taken with the DM's permission because of Restrictions in effect.
Cost: Base

Turn or Rebuke Undead
Prereq: Caster level 1+, Must worship Divine Source or per DM
As the Turn/Rebuke Undead ability. Effect is tied to caster level. May only be taken with the DM's permission because of Restrictions in effect.
Cost: Base

Domain Spells
Prereq: Caster level 1+, Domain
Allows a single domain spell slot at a designated spell level. May be taken once for each spell level.
Cost: Expansion

Spontaneous Casting
Prereq: Must worship Divine Source or per DM
As the Spontaneous Casting ability.
Cost: Restriction

Divine Armored Casting
Prereq: Must worship Divine Source or per DM
Allows no Arcane Spell Failure chance.
Cost: Restriction

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Theocrat]

I'm still reading and understanding it all

Hi all-
Wow, DrSpunj, this is excellent. I"d love to see the core classes from the Miniatures Handbook and Complete Warrior. See how those classes fit the overall overpowering aspect of things.
I'm still digesting this. It's massive and must have taken ages to workout. I certainly like the added Average saves and defensive portions. I'm looking at adding just that alone before I do more additions to my game.
Thanks for this, and I'm certainly a believer now. And I'm suprised, the fighter is the weakest before adjustments. Wow.
Thanks-

 

[ouini]

For "Spontaneous Casting" and "Divine Armored Casting", what does

Cost: Restriction

mean? I'm guessing it means that, working with your GM, you get this bonus feat/ability, but the price you pay is in-play -- how you have to play the character -- rather than out-of-play points?

Anyway, neat that you're working out a robust system.

 

[DrSpunj]

Wow, DrSpunj, this is excellent. I"d love to see the core classes from the Miniatures Handbook and Complete Warrior. See how those classes fit the overall overpowering aspect of things.

As soon as I get the Core & AU classes into a system format I'm happy with, I'll be doing the work on Expanded Psionics Handbook & Complete Warrior classes, as well as a bunch of Prestige Classes I'm interested in (both as a player and for my campaign this summer). I don't have the Miniatures Handbook but I've flipped through it, and once things are well-defined for the Core classes I can't imagine it'll be really tough for anyone to download the updated sheet and have much trouble converting much of any class to a similar format.

Thanks for this, and I'm certainly a believer now. And I'm suprised, the fighter is the weakest before adjustments. Wow.
Thanks-

You're welcome! But I hope I don't come off evangelizing here. There are lots of threads going all the time about this class being underpowered or that one being overpowered or whatever. It just seemed to me almost from the beginning of 3E that most decent class abilities come in two basic groups: good & better. If you strip things down as much as possible and look at the underlying structure of how the classes are built you can at least see general trends of power levels, even if you don't wholly agree with how I or anyone else have valued things.

The Fighter's numbers always come out low to me, no matter how I value things. That's representative of what I've experienced at the game table, so I'm starting from there and seeing how the rest of it works out!

Please post if/when you have anything to share. Everyone's comments have helped refine things for me substantially already!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

For "Spontaneous Casting" and "Divine Armored Casting", what does Cost: Restriction mean? I'm guessing it means that, working with your GM, you get this bonus feat/ability, but the price you pay is in-play -- how you have to play the character -- rather than out-of-play points?

Yeah, something along those lines. A Paladin's actions and options in many situations are, IMO, definitely altered by their code. A Cleric's, because of their deity's outlook, are similarly affected. I'm not trying to say that these outlooks mean all Paladins & Clerics need to be played the same way (they represent a lot of fun roleplaying opportunities) but at the same time the Core classes were obviously balanced with these roleplaying restrictions in mind.

Cleric's get a lot of benefits, and most would agree they are one of the most powerful Core classes available, but they come with a lot of baggage from their deity or divine source that is supposed to limit their options in many situations. Converting their abilities into a system like this becomes a bit tough if you don't take into account those roleplaying restrictions.

Since AU magic doesn't use arcane vs divine magic, I'm not going to be able to handwave Arcane Spell Failure away for some classes. That ability needs to come from somewhere. A Mage Blade uses his Athame (chosen bladed weapon) as his magical focus, so he doesn't have any somatic components (and therefore no ASF) while holding it. Making him pay for the Athame covers that ability. As long as he has the Athame he can cast his spells without any Somatic components. Easy.

For a Cleric, however, you can't just wrap that up into a single feat. To continue to avoid ASF they must continue to worship their divine source, level after level. When they stop, the abilities go away. Since there is nothing material to take from them (like the Mage Blade's Athame), I'm left with relying upon roleplaying restrictions...unless you see a different way to accomplish that goal.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

For a Cleric, however, you can't just wrap that up into a single feat. To continue to avoid ASF they must continue to worship their divine source, level after level. When they stop, the abilities go away. Since there is nothing material to take from them (like the Mage Blade's Athame), I'm left with relying upon roleplaying restrictions...unless you see a different way to accomplish that goal.

ouini, over the weekend I was able to work something out that works rather well. It still relies on roleplaying restrictions but I think, given that many of these abilities are supposedly granted by an outside source (like a deity, for Clerics), that's necessary in some cases.

Anyway, what I did is take advantage of a Core rule about feats. If you, for some reason, no longer meet the prerequisites for a feat then you no longer gain its benefit. If your Strength falls below 13, you can't use Power Attack, and therefore can't use Cleave either.

[EDIT: I'm now calling this Divine Training (& Nature Training) instead; it sounds better & is a better descriptor of what I'm after here).]

Using that I created a feat called "Divine Restriction". It's a PRIME feat that costs the same as a Base feat (5 pts). When you take it you agree to a number of roleplaying restrictions laid out by your DM (for the Cleric it would be based upon the deity and their outlook, wishes, etc.). In return, you get no ASF, have a Divine Aura for alignment purposes, and pick up Spontaneous Casting as a Cleric. At the level you take this feat you get a Major Restriction that is worth -5 pts. That way it's +5 for the feat and -5 for the restriction, so a net of 0 for the points. I figure you're paying for those benefits with the roleplaying restrictions.

With that in place, I then use that Divine Restriction as a prerequisite feat for all the other Divine Abilities. Namely Domains & Turn/Rebuke Undead. The nifty part is if the DM doesn't think you're following your deity's wishes you lose all the abilities, just like you should in Core.

I use the same thing for Paladin's and I created a Nature Restriction for Druids & Rangers. The Prereqs for those Restriction feats are 3 ranks of Knowledge(Religion) for Divine and Knowledge(Nature) for Nature.

Everything came together rather easily then. I also wanted to let you know that with the point values you came up with I didn't have to make nearly as many adjustments to the Core classes that I felt were pretty balanced. The only major change I had to make to get everything to work is dropping the Druid's magic from Full to Half, which I feel isn't unreasonable at all given that the Druid has most every advantage of the Cleric PLUS all their Wild Shape abilities.

Thanks.

DrSpunj