DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[ouini]

I like the layout of the featcheatsheat. Ifsokay with you, DrSpunj, I may just use the layout and feats you took the time to organize, and tweak the reqs and prereqs.

 

[DrSpunj]

Ifsokay with you, DrSpunj, I may just use the layout and feats you took the time to organize, and tweak the reqs and prereqs.

Please go ahead, on the condition that you attach your version here when it's in a workable form. I'm interested to see how our versions differ.

I know we've talked before about the ads & disads of Ability Prereqs and I don't believe you were all that thrilled with them, but when you can't tie things directly to class a PC's ability scores define them even more. While I don't want to keep all near-class concepts of Strong, Fast, Tough, etc. I think/hope moving the prereqs in that direction simplifies things overall.

There are, of course, still exceptions, but now they are few enough in number that they are actually exceptions to the guidelines I laid out at the top of that sheet.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Just wondering if ouini has finished his Feat Sheet. Please post if so.

On this end I'm running a one-shot Gladiatorial Fights! tomorrow night for the group I usually play in (the DM is absent this week) and a few of the players are using my Classless Generator to come up with their PCs.

I've already received one from Videssian on these boards and with 12 levels he took the Dodge feat 6 times and the Tough Hide feat 6 times. He also nearly maxed his Defense score at +11. He then took the Armor Compatibility feat I borrowed from Wheel of Time and bought a +1 Definitive Harness from AU (Armor bonus +13, max Dex +3) and a +4 Devanian Long Shield (for a +8 Shield bonus). That gives him a normal AC of 52! (Touch AC of 27 and a Flat-footed AC of 41)

On top of that he took a number of the situational AC feats like Mobility, Defensive Move, etc. I'm looking forward to seeing how effective the character ends up being in combat. He only took d8s for HD, so he can't take a lot of damage, doesn't have too much offensive melee ability (though nothing too shabby either with a Full BAB of +12), and his only good save is Reflex so he's definitely got some weak areas. Still, I can't imagine he's going to get hit too often (though his Touch AC is about fifty-fifty for most of what I'm throwing at them).

I'll post here and let you know how the session goes. Another player wanted to build a Monk/Rogue mix, but I haven't seen him yet.

EDIT: BTW, I just updated my Feats Cheat Sheet up above. It now incorporates all the feats I thought worth adding from AU and Grim Tales, and continues to organize them like the PHB feat table. I still need to add the AU Core Class abilities in there, and then spend some time rebalancing the AU spreadsheets, but I don't expect that to take all that long since I've previously done most of the work already.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

I'll post here and let you know how the session goes.

I just wanted to post the results of the combat. Mr. "You can't hit me!" wasn't overly effective...in any party role. His 20' base speed meant he was one of the last to engage the enemy in both battles, and hit low hit points meant that the area effect attacks and/or indirect damage he took from other things really hurt.

This was a group of four PCs, all 12th level. This was an "even fight" against first a single enemy and then against a party of four creatures. Four 12th level PCs have a CR of 16, so I threw them up against CR 15 & 16 encounters, both pulled from the Fiend Folio.

The first was a Hullathoin. Huge, intelligent, Undead monstrosity--big grappler, poison, lots of melee attacks for good damage. It's ace in the hole? Bloodfiend Locust Swarm! As a Standard Action it could shake off a swarm of these Energy Draining beasties and send them after someone. Now, the book doesn't put any limit on this, either number per day or how many at a time, but this swarm is a CR 8 all by itself so I ran it with a self-imposed limit of no more than 1 swarm out there at a time.

Once the Hullathoin realized it couldn't hit Videssian's PC with any melee attacks it shivered off a swarm and sent it after him, then went back to pummeling the other PCs. 3d6 plus Energy Drain automatically every round quickly took its toll on him. He couldn't outrun the swarm with his low base speed and his 3 companions were focusing all their efforts on the Hullathoin. After he'd lost 8 levels to the bugs they finally dropped the Hullathoin and won the battle.

The second combat was against a group of 4 Maugs (Large Constructs), each with grafts and class levels. They were up against Blaster (Magister), Basher (Fighter with roller graft), Spitter (Archer with stone spitter graft) and Patch (pacifistic greenbond-type who had a lot of mind-controlling effects).

With his poor Fortitude & Will saves he took quite a bit of magical damage and was affected by several of Patch's mind-affecting enchantments. He even failed a couple of Reflex rolls (got trapped inside a Lesser Resilient Sphere on the 2nd or 3rd round of combat! Luckily their Magister was able to dispel that a round or two later) so Evasion couldn't help him out (and he hadn't taken Improved Evasion). Once Basher realized he couldn't hit him he started just rolling over him doing some fair damage each time he failed the Reflex roll (which was far more likely statiscally than getting the 20 Basher needed to hit him with a normal melee attack). An early Stone Spikes spell slowed him down even more and did additional damage. He ended up sucking down a number of Cure potions throughout the battle, and even then I think he was the first of the party to fall.

Now, I chose both of those opposing combatants a full two days before any of the players had submitted their PCs to me for approval, and there are a number of potential opponents where his build would have stopped them cold. I was just glad to see that his min/maxing the Classless Generator system I've been working on didn't really break anything. Was he nearly impossible to hit? Absolutely. Did it matter? Not really.

Any thoughts, questions or comments on this experience? Or the most recent updated Feats Cheat Sheet? If so, please post!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Here's the latest files!

Here's all five files in their most current incarnations. To make them easier to download I've also included a bundled folder of all five files called "DrSpunj's Classless System".

Not too many tweaks that I can think. I ended up pricing Defense a bit cheaper at 1st level so there was actually a reason to take it at first level, otherwise it was too easy to overlook and pick up later. Right now you can spend 2 CPs for +2 Defense at first level, while at all later levels that same 2 CPs only gets you +1 Defense. Probably not enough to sway most people but that at least makes it a little more worthwhile for some. You're still better off picking up a couple more proficiency groups, honestly.

Our first session trying this out in a campaign is this coming Wednesday evening. All my players have been briefed on the system, and a couple even got to try it out with that one-shot a couple weeks ago I've described above. The toughest part for everyone I've met with has been trying to figure out what character concept they really want to try and develop! With everything literally wide open they're feeling a bit overwhelmed with the number of options they have to choose from.

I've decided I'm going to allow a little CP-fudging these first couple levels to make sure people don't feel like they made a bad choice because they didn't understand how things really worked.

If anyone has any questions, comments or concerns about the files and the system, please post!

EDIT: Just a few tweaks to the Feats file and some formatting errors cleaned up in the other files. I've packaged all four files into a single download for simplicity. The Total AU Spells.xls I've kept separate since it isn't what I'm using for the System (still very handy though for AU games if you're allowing multiclassed spellcasters).

EDIT2: I've attached the newest Classless System files to Post #164.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[volcivar]

I just downloaded the spreadsheet and noticed an error. You mention that in Arcana Unearthed no class has less than 4 skill points perl level. This is not true. The following have 2 skill points per level: Champion, Greenbond, Mageblade, Magister, Warmain. I did not see any errata that changes this. Sorry if this has already been brought up. I didn't have the time to look through all the posts.

 

[DrSpunj]

The following have 2 skill points per level: Champion, Greenbond, Mageblade, Magister, Warmain. I did not see any errata that changes this. Sorry if this has already been brought up.

Nope, it hasn't been brought up until now, and you're absolutely right. IIRC some of the Totem Warriors also only receive 2 SPs/lvl, but I haven't looked for some time now. Regardless, that statement should have been purged out of the spreadsheet long ago as I realized it was incorrect at some point, and...it must have slipped my mind.

I'll change it and upload the newest versions of the files I have later today! No major changes anywhere. I have about 7 players using it to put together their PCs for my campaign and so far most everyone's really doing well with it. One player bowed out of the game stating it was too confusing, but after looking at his complaints a bit more objectively I've come to realize his frustrations lie mostly with the AU Magic system. There were definitely some things that needed clarification during character generation, but everyone else picked up on the system as a whole very quickly. We'll see how things work out for our first session on the 22nd of this month!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

volcivar,I hope you were referring to an earlier post in this thread with your comment. I just checked over the Spreadsheet itself and could not find the passage I was remembering being there originally. I must have corrected it at some point along the way. If you are seeing it in the Spreadsheet could you please tell me which Sheet and which cell? I read through both the Intro & Notes sheets without finding it where I expected to.

Also, I've updated the file bundle in Post #155. As I said before, nothing major, but the CP Worksheet is a bit more user-friendly now since all my players were filling it out in Word rather than by hand.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[volcivar]

Just downloaded your latest and the section I was referring to has been corrected.

 

[SSquirrel]

Necro posting!!! How's the game coming along using the system Spunj? Hope its going well. I just pointed people to this thread from a thread about someone being fed up with d20 and wanting something different.

Hagen