DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[DrSpunj]

Hey! Long time no post, eh?

We have our second playing session tonight (Wednesday). Character creation went very smoothly though there were a couple issues that required some minor tweaking. (I should upload the latest set of Classless Documents.)

I did have an intro session before our first playing session where we spent about 2/3 of the time going over the system and answering people's questions to get them on the right track. The last 1/3 I used to introduce them to the campaign world and get the story ball rolling.

We have 7 players at the table (everyone, including me, in the 30s or older, most with families, so I don't expect to get everyone every session) and have a very nice class/ability variety. Here's the breakdown:

• Arbach (Human), Forest Warden (think "Nature Monk"); part warrior, part "face" man
• Ghendrin (Dwarf), Warrior Mage; Warmace Athame, Basic Magic 1
• Harry (Dwarf), Totem Warrior (Wolverine); with Claws
• Olorin (Human), Runethane/Thief; Runes x3, Basic Magic 1, Trap Disabler
• Svall (Human), Warrior Monk; d12, Full BAB, Improved Grapple
• Thorn (Elf), Hook-master; Guisarme-like Reach Weapon that does 1 step less damage but gives a +2 to Trip attempts, Improved Trip, will likely branch into Druidic casting and some related abilities
• Valder (Human), Priest of Tinel; Advanced Magic 1, Psion, Modify Spell

I've also decided to go with a dynamic leveling system along the lines of Mutants & Masterminds. Instead of using XP I'm just converting that to an appropriate number of Character Points (CPs) that they receive each session. As soon as they get a good night's rest they get to spend those CPs on the fly.

To explain a bit, it takes 1,000 XP to reach 2nd level in Core D&D. You get 11 CPs at each level after 1st in my system. Merging those two, for every 100 XP the character's earn they get 1 CP they can spend as soon as they get a good night's rest. When they reach the level break for 2nd level at 1,000 XP they get 2 CPs (consider 1 a bonus if you want). That adds up to the 11 CPs they deserve for reaching 2nd level, but instead of getting them all at once at the level break they instead get them piecemeal as they earn them.

For the first session they earned just over 300 XP, so they each have 3 CPs they'll get to spend/apply whenever they rest successfully at the next session later today. They've had the last four weeks to decide where to use them. Some plan on buying their 2nd level HD early for more hit points, others have used them on their 2nd level Skill Points. Videssian had enough saved from 1st level that he's already able to purchase Advanced Magic a second time so is a 2nd level caster already while another player has enough to buy a 2nd level feat.

Doing things this way seems to be a lot more fun for them, since they get to buy something new every session. Of course, they may have to save them for some of the more expensive abilities like feats & magic. Regardless, I've had to make some adjustments with their challenges since they are a bit more capable than a typical 1st level party. Right now the party average is 1.3, and after tonight I'm expecting it to be 1.7 or 1.8 (depending on how far they get).

I'll try and upload the most recent Classless documents I've got. ouini and I have also wrestled with his version of the system a bit over the last week over email, so some progress there as well.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

It goes well

The system is working very well. In a nutshell, I'd say this system is actually more fun, but is not for novice gamers, and still reqiures input from the GM, whereas players can work with a class system (core) more independently, but are "stuck" on rails.

DrSpunj's system needs a little tweaking, but it's really impressive how well it has worked out already. And I'd imagine, if he's careful, it will only get better.

 

[SSquirrel]

For more system modding fun, check this link:

DanMCS's Weapons as Special Effects

Very fun way of doing weapons. I wanna combine this, Spunj's class system and Ken Hood's Revised Grim N Gritty combat rules all together. Then add in the simplified mana system I've mentioned in this thread before and you have a well modded system that I think would be fun to play.

Hagen

 

[DrSpunj]

Thanks for the kind words, ouini! Honestly I'm very happy with how things have turned out. I was very nervous about scaring away more than one of the players in the group but everyone (alright, nearly everyone ) seems really taken with it. I'm anxious to get to some higher levels and see what kind of a power level we're dealing with vs some of the other low to mid level games I've seen, but growing up slowly is really the way to go since none of us really know what to expect.

And you're right, I'll have to keep my eyes open for necessary tweaks along the way. Thankfully I have you, Videssian, and even Thorn's player to provide input to help keep me going in the right direction.

SSquirrel, I've downloaded DanMcS' Weapons as Special Effects document. It is really neat, but not something I'm going to even try and incorporate this time around. I'll be watching that thread, though, because it is something I might consider in the future.

The Grim N Gritty rules, however, are not something I much care for. They're a great set of rules, I'm just not into them. I prefer a Heroic Fantasy game with lots of danger but not a lot of death. The biggest penalty I like from character death is that your "out" for awhile, but I like my players to become really attached to their PCs, and enjoy playing them. Then when I put them in danger they really get nervous! My players would be getting new PCs nearly every session with the GnG rules and I don't any of us would be having all that much fun.

For all those interested, here's the newest files for the Classless System. I left the Total AU spells file back in Post #155 for anyone that wants that.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

And you're right, I'll have to keep my eyes open for necessary tweaks along the way.

The system and campaign are fun. But actually, when I said "if you're careful it will only get better," I was as much referring to avoiding over-tuning and complicating it as I was referring to watching for necessary changes.

Everybody has a character for my campaign now, btw, and made their characters without hassle. Who knows when we'll be able to play, but if DrSpunj's game is any indication, it should go pretty smoothly.

I use AU spells, but the biggest difference between DrSpunj's and my point-system is that he uses a #-of-spells-readied chart, and I use the "gain your new level in mana" mana system.

Two quick questions:

1 - Has anyone found any other/new spell templates for AU? I worked with a player to invent a kind of natural-totem template, but couldn't find anything like a nature template online.

2 - DrSpunj, how are you handling which spell components are necessary? I'm going with "you need verbal, somatic, and material components as a spellcaster unless you have a feat to remove one. But one of those is a soft requirement" (i.e. you can choose your material components to be a single focus like a holy symbol *OR* you can choose your verbal components to be whisperable so long as you can still speak etc.)

 

[DrSpunj]

The system and campaign are fun. But actually, when I said "if you're careful it will only get better," I was as much referring to avoiding over-tuning and complicating it as I was referring to watching for necessary changes.

Fair enough; point taken. Still, I think the tough part is going to be when to actually change the system itself vs just leaving it up to the DM. Recognizing the difference is going to take some work. We struggled with that a bit when coming up with your character/feats, ouini.

Everybody has a character for my campaign now, btw, and made their characters without hassle. Who knows when we'll be able to play, but if DrSpunj's game is any indication, it should go pretty smoothly.

Cool! So is it just the standard 3 players (since you said you were going to run this when the typical DM is away)? And what type of PCs did they come up with?

Also, I just realized I haven't seen much from you on your Feats Cheat Sheet. What did you end up using for them to choose feats from?

I use AU spells, but the biggest difference between DrSpunj's and my point-system is that he uses a #-of-spells-readied chart, and I use the "gain your new level in mana" mana system.

Right, different but still very slick. I'm anxious to see how it works for you in play.

1 - Has anyone found any other/new spell templates for AU? I worked with a player to invent a kind of natural-totem template, but couldn't find anything like a nature template online.

I haven't had too much luck with the Search engine on Monte's forums. I started a Force Mage thread in the AU Rules forum there a couple weeks ago and multiple people said there was a previous thread but I couldn't find it. Accounts are free so maybe it's worth getting one (assuming you haven't already done so) and search for something pretty basic like "template".

2 - DrSpunj, how are you handling which spell components are necessary? I'm going with "you need verbal, somatic, and material components as a spellcaster unless you have a feat to remove one. But one of those is a soft requirement" (i.e. you can choose your material components to be a single focus like a holy symbol *OR* you can choose your verbal components to be whisperable so long as you can still speak etc.)

That goes back to the whole discussion after that one-shot with Videssian playing a divine caster and assuming he could Dimension Door out of the Dragon Turtle's mouth/grapple. After discussing it a bit with the group I decided which components you had to deal with (Verbal, Somatic, Material, Focus, etc.) were entirely dependent on your magical training. It's now included in the Feat Cheat Sheet document. There may still be some balancing needed there but we'll see.

Your ideas on the subject are nifty. Can you adjust or switch which is the soft component on the fly? Or is set/chosen when you first buy magic?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

...when I said "if you're careful it will only get better," I was as much referring to avoiding over-tuning...

...I think the tough part is going to be when to actually change the system ... We struggled with that a bit when coming up with your character/feats, ouini.

But I think it's fair to say that, inside the Nevanna/Oheka groups, I'm the least likely to stick to a class or cookie-cutter feat-tree. Rule of thumb, the more you deviate from classes, the more exceptions and GM-aid you're going to need.

What did you end up using for them to choose feats from?

I went through and simplified it for 1st level folks, taking out lots of feat chains they weren't familiar with, but letting them know that their character's concept was more important than what was pre-written on a list of feats. The 1st level sheet is now out at http://www.sharemation.com/ouini/rules-Feats'.doc

DrSpunj, how are you handling which spell components are necessary?

I decided which components you had to deal with (Verbal, Somatic, Material, Focus, etc.) were entirely dependent on your magical training...Your ideas on the subject are nifty. Can you adjust or switch which is the soft component on the fly? Or is set/chosen when you first buy magic?

It's chosen when you first buy magic. You choose one "soft" component out of three (material, verbal, somatic), unless you choose a feat to lower that number.

 

[DrSpunj]

I'll check out the sheet when I have some time. And I agree that you are the most likely to stray from what's physically written down.

And you didn't respond to this part:

Cool! So is it just the standard 3 players (since you said you were going to run this when the typical DM is away)? And what type of PCs did they come up with?

I'm very much curious what each person came up with. I was going to type their gestalt names here but I honestly can't remember them anymore.

Any help?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

Specific characters.

It's just the standard three players.

The woman who played Mishka created a human 'heavy'. A brutish thug for hire who lives in the capitol city of the Vale. She knows and is respected by locals in the poor quarter, and has a variety of friends with a range of talents (from painted ladies to fellow heavies to halfling farmers). This also includes a low-level constabulary who asks her to go with him on missions sometimes, which gives her a broader knowledge of the Vale's non-human inhabitants, villages, and the elven patrol.

The guy who played Grennen is this time playing a forest-dwelling human shaman. He's a full spellcaster who can cast complex spells. But his style is not of the traditional D&D wizard. He's very into cosmology and working with the spirits of objects and animals. He works with herbs for materials, and in fact took a modified "Scribe Scrolls" called "Compose Spell-Bag" for which his components he can scrounge from the land (for free), but they don't last indefinitely, and whether their duration has expired or not is determined at the time he tries to release the spell. He's also familiar with the gnomes who inhabit the deeper woods, the halflings in the farmlands, other rural folks and personalities, the elven patrol, and some of the natural threats of the Vale.

"Fafaf" is playing a junior member of an elven patrol. She's frail, is an archer and a tactician (made a new feat to reflect that), and is very familiar with the layout of the known valley. She's not a spellcaster, but she took a pseudo-mystical skill called "Wind Friend", which doesn't do much now, but she plans on it letting her do things like carry whispers further, nurture flames better, and eventually possibly affect arrow flight.

The three characters don't know each other now, but all three have people they know in common. There is a new forum on Gestalt called The Vale>, which you have access to. This Thursday may possibly be the first time we play, and of course I'm looking forward to it.

I do have something that's marginally unsatisfactory in my system. I'll just ask, for spell-readying in your system, do cantrips you ready count as zero-level spells, even though you can choose at the last moment to cast them as, essentially, 1st-level spells?

 

[DrSpunj]

It's just the standard three players.

Sounds cool & fun! Good luck with it.

I do have something that's marginally unsatisfactory in my system. I'll just ask, for spell-readying in your system, do cantrips you ready count as zero-level spells, even though you can choose at the last moment to cast them as, essentially, 1st-level spells?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. I *think* you're asking if heightening a spell on the fly bumps it's _readied_ level by 1, and the answer to that question is no. The only thing that matters to the "slot" is how much power the spell had. With your system I'm not sure if that would be modified significantly or not. Monte's designed a very versatile system, and a 1st level Advanced/Full caster may end up casting all 0-level spells one day (by unweaving his 1st level slots and casting either 0-level spells or diminished 1st-level spells) and then all 1st-level spells the next (by weaving together his 0-level slots and casting 1st-level spells and heightened 0-level spells).

The slot is the important thing, and that's determined at the time of casting. I don't see how Readying has any bearing at all, but again, I may (probably) have misunderstood your question.

I obviously haven't logged in in a while. I'll try to do so over the next couple days.

Thanks.

DrSpunj