Druid form expolit

[Darren Campbell]

So I'm new to being a DM for 5e.

Second game and my druid learns the ability to turn himself into things. Namely a spider. Which he can use to act as a scout, all the time. He can also go into this form during combat and if he's hit just returns to his normal form.

How do you DMs work this where they can't really exploit it. I mean I can play it against that ability but thats not fair or fun.

Thanks.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

There are two real limitations to Wild Shape:

1) By default, until you get to very high levels, you can only use this ability twice before you need to take a short rest (or a long rest). By default, a short rest takes like an hour, so the druid needs to be careful about using this ability or else they may find that they've run out of usages when they need it most.

2) Wild Shape ends immediately if the druid is put to sleep, killed, or reduced to zero hit points; if the druid reverts due to having their hit points reduced to zero, the excess damage goes to the druid's regular form. If your druid turns into a spider with 1hp, and is bitten by a bear for 8 damage, the druid reverts and takes 7 damage to their regular form.

Keep in mind also that animal forms tend to have lousy AC, so you're going to take more damage than you otherwise would, and you can't cast spells while you're in that form (until you reach very high levels).

 

[TallIan]

Keep in mind that he has expended a resource (one of his wild shapes) to get this ability, so it is only fair that he gets something. Scouting ahead slightly is fair, scouting a entire mega dungeon is abusing the system and the DM's good will.

If he is abusing this by mapping a whole dungeon while the rest of the party waits outside, then your dungeons are probably too static. By this I mean you need to add patrols outside that are likely to find the party the longer they wait; move the bad guys around after spiderdruid has scouted; have bad guys arrive and leave the dungeon.

Also don't let spiderdruid scout without risks. Rats, insects and other pests are a problem, even in a dungeon, so have your bad guys keep pets that are likely to detect and attack a spider. That way he won't want to venture too far ahead of the party, much like the proverbial thief scouting ahead. It becomes a risk vs reward issue, rather than an automatic "scout everything" switch.

 

[Sunseeker]

None of the things you mentioned are exploits. The Druid has limited Wild Shapes/day so its in his interests not to use them. Sure, he can stay wild shaped as long as he wants but that's going to prevent him from doing other things, such as collecting loot, drawing maps, not getting stepped on, etc...

 

[JacktheRabbit]

So I'm new to being a DM for 5e.

Second game and my druid learns the ability to turn himself into things. Namely a spider. Which he can use to act as a scout, all the time. He can also go into this form during combat and if he's hit just returns to his normal form.

How do you DMs work this where they can't really exploit it. I mean I can play it against that ability but thats not fair or fun.

Thanks.

So he turns into something tiny that moves pretty slow and has really limiting messed up vision.

Sure it works as a scout but it takes forever and he is likely to miss lots of things that are just outside his visual range. Oh and there is the whole spiders are deaf limitation. They can sense vibration but that doesn't help as much when scouting since it has much shorter range than hearing.

Let him do it, just don't treat it like he became a tiny human while scouting.

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[Darren Campbell]

All great advice, thank you very much

 

[5ekyu]

So I'm new to being a DM for 5e.

Second game and my druid learns the ability to turn himself into things. Namely a spider. Which he can use to act as a scout, all the time. He can also go into this form during combat and if he's hit just returns to his normal form.

How do you DMs work this where they can't really exploit it. I mean I can play it against that ability but thats not fair or fun.

Thanks.

look up the stats for spider.

notice the stealth+4

that is the sneak around and keep from being noticed skill the scout-spider would use. That gets to the very first (for a reason) bullet under wildshape "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast"

I can bet you that even at 2nd level, a rogue with stealth at a net +4 would not dream of running into a dunegon to scout things out while the party waits outside even when that rogue would have hide as a bonus action option. A rogue willint to even try that likely has +3 dex min and expertise for +8. that rogue could also open doors, drawers etc.

I think in part there could be a problem if the GM winged it and did not account for the in-game statistics provided - but they are then ignoring a significant restriction of wildshape.

The other thing to keep in mind is that in a fantasy world, with magics like this known and available, it is likely there would be equally things put in place to prevent it or detect it. just because a particular effect is not listed in the PHB/DMG lists for players does not mean it is not existing. Imagine something as simple as an herbal paste that serves as a toxin to spiders passing over it but which is not strong enough to affect even kobolds (except Kilo "hits own head" who tends to just scrape up and eat scum off the floor way more than he should.)

basically your player is likely not the first druid in the whole of existence to think "what if i go small and..."

 

[redrick]

look up the stats for spider.

notice the stealth+4

that is the sneak around and keep from being noticed skill the scout-spider would use. That gets to the very first (for a reason) bullet under wildshape "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast"

I can bet you that even at 2nd level, a rogue with stealth at a net +4 would not dream of running into a dunegon to scout things out while the party waits outside even when that rogue would have hide as a bonus action option. A rogue willint to even try that likely has +3 dex min and expertise for +8. that rogue could also open doors, drawers etc.

I think in part there could be a problem if the GM winged it and did not account for the in-game statistics provided - but they are then ignoring a significant restriction of wildshape.

The other thing to keep in mind is that in a fantasy world, with magics like this known and available, it is likely there would be equally things put in place to prevent it or detect it. just because a particular effect is not listed in the PHB/DMG lists for players does not mean it is not existing. Imagine something as simple as an herbal paste that serves as a toxin to spiders passing over it but which is not strong enough to affect even kobolds (except Kilo "hits own head" who tends to just scrape up and eat scum off the floor way more than he should.)

basically your player is likely not the first druid in the whole of existence to think "what if i go small and..."

I think boiling a comparison of a sneaking spider vs a sneaking (humanoid) rogue to the Stealth modifier is overly simplistic. First of all, as a Tiny creature, that spider is going to be able to achieve the "total concealment" required to hide much more effectively than even a Small rogue. The spider can hide behind your standard dungeon detritus, where a rogue would be standing in the middle of the room "being silent".

Spiderclimb is also going to allow the spider to go places that a normal rogue couldn't, opening up all sorts of hiding options.

And, finally, since the movement of a spider is super quiet, I'd only be calling for stealth checks if the spider is able to give its position away visibly (running along the corner of the ceiling), or if it is very close to another creature, preferably with a sophisticated sense of smell.

So, sneaking around, the intelligent spider is going to beat the rogue any day of the week, with or without a masters degree in dungeon stealth. On the other hand, all of the other limitations (you're tiny and slow, you have garbage sight, you are prey for dungeon vermin) still add up.

 

[5ekyu]

I think boiling a comparison of a sneaking spider vs a sneaking (humanoid) rogue to the Stealth modifier is overly simplistic. First of all, as a Tiny creature, that spider is going to be able to achieve the "total concealment" required to hide much more effectively than even a Small rogue. The spider can hide behind your standard dungeon detritus, where a rogue would be standing in the middle of the room "being silent".

Spiderclimb is also going to allow the spider to go places that a normal rogue couldn't, opening up all sorts of hiding options.

And, finally, since the movement of a spider is super quiet, I'd only be calling for stealth checks if the spider is able to give its position away visibly (running along the corner of the ceiling), or if it is very close to another creature, preferably with a sophisticated sense of smell.

So, sneaking around, the intelligent spider is going to beat the rogue any day of the week, with or without a masters degree in dungeon stealth. On the other hand, all of the other limitations (you're tiny and slow, you have garbage sight, you are prey for dungeon vermin) still add up.

Obviously a GM can rule all sorts of extra bdnefits for creatures ourside of their stats as presented in the books.

Doing so will equally obviously have an impact on balance issues for character features that access those creature designed under the assumption in the rules.

The rules and class balance cannot account for GM add-ons like say a gm who decides a tonfa is a 3dr weapon (cuz they are into martial arts) vs the club it is treated as in RAW.



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[redrick]

Obviously a GM can rule all sorts of extra bdnefits for creatures ourside of their stats as presented in the books.

Doing so will equally obviously have an impact on balance issues for character features that access those creature designed under the assumption in the rules.

The rules and class balance cannot account for GM add-ons like say a gm who decides a tonfa is a 3dr weapon (cuz they are into martial arts) vs the club it is treated as in RAW.



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Aside from common sense ruling on sound (I mean, have you ever heard a spider?), the advantages I cited are all pretty direct applications of game terms and statistics. The rules on hiding in the PHB stipulate that, in order to hide, a character needs to be totally obscured. A Tiny creature is going to be totally obscured by much smaller objects than even a Small creature. Spiderclimb, the ability for the spider to climb up almost any surface, and into crevices in the ceiling, for instance, is right there in the statblock. There's more to "RAW" than skill modifiers.

By RAW, a spider is able to hide in tons of situations where a humanoid won't even be allowed a roll. (Total concealment.) By RAW, a spider is able to climb into hiding spaces a humanoid could never reach. (Spiderclimb.) The balance issues are handled by common sense and broader thinking on the part of the DM.

If, as a Druid, I wildshaped into a spider to sneak into a treasure vault, and the DM called for a stealth check while I was climbing along the ceiling of a corridor, and, upon a low roll, told me that the goblins playing dice in the room around the corner, noticed me, I would be beyond cheesed.