Druid Questions

[Stormborn]

In almost 4 years gaming with 3.x my group has never had anything to do with druids (other than the one is Sunless Citadel and that was the very first game), however, in the up coming campaign we have all decided to try soemthing different and my wife has chosen a druid. 1st level, Elf Druid w/ a Wolf companion, Alignment: N. She had some questions that I think I know the answer to, but wanted to run it by the boards:

1) Can a druid with the Track feat and a wolf companion take advantage of Aid Another or a similar effect to gain bonuses while tracking?

2) Given the HD progression of a animal companion for a druid, does a medium creature become large when it gains the appropriate HD, and if so can it be used as a mount? (Say when the 2 HD wolf gets 2 more and an increase in STR, can the lithe elf druid ride it?)

3) Is their a good source for tricks that can be taught an animal companion outside of the Core Books?

4) Any general advice on playing a druid?

 

[smetzger]

1) Can a druid with the Track feat and a wolf companion take advantage of Aid Another or a similar effect to gain bonuses while tracking?

I don't see why not.

2) Given the HD progression of a animal companion for a druid, does a medium creature become large when it gains the appropriate HD, and if so can it be used as a mount? (Say when the 2 HD wolf gets 2 more and an increase in STR, can the lithe elf druid ride it?)

No the size of the creature does not change. However, the Druid can cast Animal Growth on the animal companion.

4) Any general advice on playing a druid?

Play the Druid like you would play a Wizard, e.g. stay out of melee combat. At least untill you get Wild Shape.
A Druid absolutely must take Natural Spell as soon as possible.

To the DM...
The 3.5 Druid is overpowered IMO. You may want to tweak some things.

 

[Mouseferatu]

To the DM...
The 3.5 Druid is overpowered IMO. You may want to tweak some things.

Couldn't disagree more. I think the 3.5 druid is perfect. Having seen several played, and done so myself, my experience has always been that the druid is a very useful character to have around, but in no way, shape, or form ever seems to dominate the game or the field, or overshadows the other PCs.

Everything else Smetzger said is dead on, though.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Couldn't disagree more. I think the 3.5 druid is perfect. Having seen several played, and done so myself, my experience has always been that the druid is a very useful character to have around, but in no way, shape, or form ever seems to dominate the game or the field, or overshadows the other PCs.

Everything else Smetzger said is dead on, though.

So...played much with the Whirlwind ability of Air Elementals much? It's rather silly.

I think part of the problem with druids is that people notice when they do stuff but not when they don't. Druids are crappy counter-casters. They can't undo much and what they can undo costs them more resources. They have the worst antimagic selection of any of the primary casters. They aren't much on detection spells either (True Sight is 7th.) Damage to outplanars can be a very hard to come by. Fire is a common resistance and nothing on the SNA list has any ability to break DR that isn't /type. No reasonable spells fixes that (or should) either.

Somebody is cursed/level drained/stoned/whatever? the druid is the only caster who says "If he actually dies, I can bring him back as something without it..."

Which I've done to an animal companion...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think part of the problem with druids is that people notice when they do stuff but not when they don't. Druids are crappy counter-casters. They can't undo much and what they can undo costs them more resources. They have the worst antimagic selection of any of the primary casters. They aren't much on detection spells either (True Sight is 7th.) Damage to outplanars can be a very hard to come by. Fire is a common resistance and nothing on the SNA list has any ability to break DR that isn't /type.

I could come up with a million things any class can't do. It's all about what a druid can do.

He has full spell progression, and arguably the most effective spell list in the game.

He has medium-BAB, but the ability to wildshape into creatures with outrageous physical stats to compensate. And still cast spells at the same time, thanks to Natural Spell.

At 5th-level, he can overcome nearly any environmental hazzard using wildshape. He can Fly, Swim, or Crawl his way to advantage in any environment at all. And retain full spellcasting while doing it.

He can cast in armor.

He gets a familiar, only his familiar can tear the enemy to shreds and be Animal Growth'd. And if it dies, it can be replaced the next day.

4+int skill points.

And this is just the core druid. Add in splatbooks and things like Nature's Favor, Wilding Clasps, Miasma, etc. etc. and it gets even worse. It's like the entire D&D design pool has been brainwashed into thinking the druid's underpowered, so it's okay to give them more and more blatantly broken spells and abilities.

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what to do with the druid. He is, IMO, definitely stronger than any other class. My gut tells me that he should be limited to only 6 levels of spells, like the bard. But I haven't playtested such a solution, and I doubt, if I Houseruled it that way, many players would be willing to test it out.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I could come up with a million things any class can't do. It's all about what a druid can do.

So you'd say the fighter is by far the best all-round class, second to none?

After all, the fact that he can't contribute out of combat is irrelevant. It's all about what he CAN do...

He has full spell progression, and arguably the most effective spell list in the game.

For certain things. It's on par with the wizard's for battlefield control and ordinary direct damage. It's the best for buffing animals (duh). It sucks at anything else.

He has medium-BAB, but the ability to wildshape into creatures with outrageous physical stats to compensate. And still cast spells at the same time, thanks to Natural Spell.

And not communicate with his buddies, or use most triggered magical items. Additionally the creatures he becomes, while having good physical stats, have almost nothing else.

At 5th-level, he can overcome nearly any environmental hazzard using wildshape. He can Fly, Swim, or Crawl his way to advantage in any environment at all. And retain full spellcasting while doing it.

Yawn. If the rest of the party aren't coming along too, it doesn't really help him. Water breathing is available at 5th level for every primary caster. Fly for the wizards too. Reduce person. None of these remove your ability to communicate or cast spells.

He can cast in armor.

Not when he's casting in animal form... And anyway - this is far more of a problem with a cleric (not to mention the cleric's better spell list...)

He gets a familiar, only his familiar can tear the enemy to shreds and be Animal Growth'd. And if it dies, it can be replaced the next day.

Oh, and it's thick as mud and won't attack undead or outsiders without training. It also can't activate magical items, nor is it as powerful as some of the improved familiars.

A wizard's familiar gets all of a wizard's skills. That can be quite powerful.

4+int skill points.

And most likely no int modifier.

And this is just the core druid. Add in splatbooks and things like Nature's Favor, Wilding Clasps, Miasma,

Miasma is an error, pure and simple. Natures favor is comparable to divine favour. Wilding clasps don't really do anything anymore.

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what to do with the druid. He is, IMO, definitely stronger than any other class. My gut tells me that he should be limited to only 6 levels of spells, like the bard. But I haven't playtested such a solution, and I doubt, if I Houseruled it that way, many players would be willing to test it out.

Are all your players druids? Do they all have levels of druid?

If not - you have to ask "why not?"
It's probably because they're not as good as you think.

Have you played one?

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I could come up with a million things any class can't do. It's all about what a druid can do.

He has full spell progression, and arguably the most effective spell list in the game.

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Druids can sorta blast people, kinda heal people, screw with natural enviroments, summon and enhance natural armor. Those are the big things. Those are where their spell lists hits. It's incredibly limited for an primary caster. They also have no 'anything' spell.

They can't charm people, can't create illusions, can't fix magical aliments, can't summon more than two things with spell like abilties, can't blast people with anything but fire, can't augment the parties actual weapons and armor, can't (until high level) kill people outright, can't do anything about incomprehensible text, can't do anything about fear (which his AC and all his summoned monsters are incredibly vulnerable to), can't touch incorpereal, can't stop a monster from teleporting, can't give the fighter a 50% miss chance.....

Really, I just browsed through the cleric list up to 4th for most of those. Until you've played one and listened to your friends say "You can't do x?" a hundred times you probably don't realize where they are.

He has medium-BAB, but the ability to wildshape into creatures with outrageous physical stats to compensate. And still cast spells at the same time, thanks to Natural Spell.

This works for about four levels before it becomes incredibly impractical. Wildshaped you've got no AC and usually cap at three attacks (Since you don't get itinerative attacks.) Even then natural weapons have some fair sized problems with the new DR rules.

At 5th-level, he can overcome nearly any environmental hazzard using wildshape. He can Fly, Swim, or Crawl his way to advantage in any environment at all. And retain full spellcasting while doing it.

Not at 5th level. As much as people like to point to wildshape and say "Ooo!" I find the more I level the more I stay humaniod.

He can cast in armor.

Leather or Hide. The bard gets a +4 armor bonus at first level, the druid can get a +3 if he takes a movement hit. Dragon hide can boost this to +5. I do think Dragon hide is silly in it's price.

He gets a familiar, only his familiar can tear the enemy to shreds and be Animal Growth'd. And if it dies, it can be replaced the next day.

*shrug* AC's are great at first level. At higher levels most become paper tigers with pathetic armor classes and laughable hitpoints for something that wants to melee.

4+int skill points.

A pretty decent skill list as well. Though handle animal is almost a given if you want to keep your non-intelligent familiar in line.

And this is just the core druid. Add in splatbooks and things like Nature's Favor, Wilding Clasps, Miasma, etc. etc. and it gets even worse.

In order....was stupid but is now iffy, isn't that bad if you only let it do what it says it does (vests, cloaks and neckware basically), was incredibly stupid and I haven't met a person who thought it was a good idea. I mean, Living Greyhawk banned Miasma, it's thatbad.

It's like the entire D&D design pool has been brainwashed into thinking the druid's underpowered, so it's okay to give them more and more blatantly broken spells and abilities.

I agree and think most of the problem lies here. Most of the splat books are incredibly stupid. The areas I listed above that the druid is bad at? He should be bad at it. He has a lot of versatility without his spell list and shouldn't have the range of a arcane caster. I don't know what Andy Collins actually thinks druids should or shouldn't be able to do but it must stop just short of world domination.

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what to do with the druid. He is, IMO, definitely stronger than any other class. My gut tells me that he should be limited to only 6 levels of spells, like the bard. But I haven't playtested such a solution, and I doubt, if I Houseruled it that way, many players would be willing to test it out.

At 15th level, I use one class ability with any regularity; Mask of a Thousand Faces. I only wildshaped after picking up Fast wildshape as a cheap boost to con when things go bad. I might like venom immunity if I wasn't always Hero's Feasted. The animal companion can hit something hard for a round then dies in the counter attack. I spend a fair share of fights unable to summon since anything a druid has that packs a punch is large at least, AG is mostly out of the question. I'd get beat down without fighters and would be stopped dead by a host of monster the cleric or mage dismiss with a spell.

Tell me, what does the core druid do against a Pit Fiend?

 

[Spatula]

This works for about four levels before it becomes incredibly impractical. Wildshaped you've got no AC and usually cap at three attacks (Since you don't get itinerative attacks.)

When would a single-classed druid ever get more than three attacks with iterative attacks from BAB?

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what to do with the druid. He is, IMO, definitely stronger than any other class. My gut tells me that he should be limited to only 6 levels of spells, like the bard. But I haven't playtested such a solution, and I doubt, if I Houseruled it that way, many players would be willing to test it out.

If you're having problem with a Druid character, one thing to consider is to be quite strict about spells which may not work outside a suitable environment. The DM may adjudicate several good druidic spells to work only outdoor, or with enough vegetation around for example. It's not even nessarily house ruling if the spell is open to interpretation.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Guys, I'm just giving my impressions here. I've seen one druid played to 12th-level, and have another druid at 7th-level in the game I currently play in. These have been my observations.

So you'd say the fighter is by far the best all-round class, second to none?

After all, the fact that he can't contribute out of combat is irrelevant. It's all about what he CAN do...

No, because the fighter can only do one thing well. He hits things. The druid can hit things, heal things, buff things, blast things, summon things, transport things, etc. etc. The druid can do a crazy amount of things very well. So pointing out that he can't do a few things means little. He still does more things well than any other class. Though I could see a strong case made for the cleric as well.

For certain things. It's on par with the wizard's for battlefield control and ordinary direct damage. It's the best for buffing animals (duh). It sucks at anything else.

What exactly is anything else? Healing? Check. Yes, druids get it a bit late, but they still get it. Splatbooks even add the Vigor line. Debuffing? Check. The only real hole in the druid's spell list is in the Enchantment/Illusion department.

And not communicate with his buddies, or use most triggered magical items.

Oh darn. He'll have to make due with his entire daily allotment of spells without being able to use wands as well. And as for communication, it's not really necessary most of the time. If it is, he just changes back for a second. Each use of wildshape lasts for hours, and he keeps getting more uses as he levels. And if that isn't enough, it's simplicity itself to cast a few Speak With Animals into a Lesser Ring of Spell Storing for your pals.

Additionally the creatures he becomes, while having good physical stats, have almost nothing else.

What else do they need? You say it like every other class gets to change into animals with a ton of abilities. But that's not the way it works. Only the druid gets this ability, and it allows him to dump strength, dex, and con and still be a powerful melee combatant.

Oh, and it's thick as mud and won't attack undead or outsiders without training.

Lucky for the animal companion that it gets free tricks that require no training as it levels, then. Who cares if it's stupid? It's another huge meat shield the druid gets for free.

It also can't activate magical items, nor is it as powerful as some of the improved familiars.

Since the wizard would have to spend a feat to gain an improved familiar, I'd hope it'd be more powerful than an animal companion, but sadly I believe the companion still wins. Druid 20 vs. Wizard 20. Show me an improved familiar more powerful than a Dire Tiger or Tyrannosaurus.

A wizard's familiar gets all of a wizard's skills. That can be quite powerful.

It can be useful at times, it's never powerful, IME.

And most likely no int modifier.

This is meaningless. The paladin isn't likely to have an int modifier. Nor is the fighter, nor the cleric. Yet they're all saddled with 2 skill points per level. The druid gets double that out of the box.

Miasma is an error, pure and simple. Natures favor is comparable to divine favour. Wilding clasps don't really do anything anymore.

Yes, Nature's Favor is comparable to Divine Favor, the problem with it is that druids shouldn't get the spell. If it's okay for the druid, then Wizards is going to need to put out an Aether's Favor for the wizard, and a Melody's Favor for the bard. And something, something for the fighter.

I'm curious, what do you mean "Wilding clasps don't really do anything anymore."?

Are all your players druids? Do they all have levels of druid?

If not - you have to ask "why not?"
It's probably because they're not as good as you think.

I don't play with players who choose character classes to be powerful, so this point is moot. If I did then you might have a point, but as I don't, you don't.

Have you ever played one?

No. I commented on this to the player of the druid in our game, actually. Even though I know the druid is the most powerful class in the game, I simply can't stand to play them. The whole natural thing doesn't sit well with me. I'm much more a fighter/wizard and paladin player. That doesn't make the druid any less powerful.