Druids

[green slime]

So, just so I am straight, a druid gains the new CON of an animal wildshaped into, but the hitpoints do not go up?

Is this the only instance in 3.5 where there can be a CON increase and the hitpoints don't increase? For example, Raging, Bear's Endurance all give hitpoints, but wildshaping into a whale, the druid still has his original hitpoints.

Was this errata'ed because it was considered too powerful?

Yes somewhere back in 3.0 development, they thought it was too powerful.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

basically wildshape and con damage is one of the hardest things to keep track of. their are no rules that determine what happens to your hit points when your con changes in animal form.

the best way i have found is assume you have two con scores. one of your base form and one of your wildshape form. Your wildshapes con effects your fort save and skills while your normal forms con effects your hit points. con damage damages both these con score at once.

Keep in mind i'm just making a suggestion this is a hole in the rules that could stop a game dead, at least for a little bit until its sorted out. .

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah, confusion by version differences. Gotcha. Good thing I linked to the specific one to which I referred, then.

Yes, I had my MM 3.5 open at the time, so I never bothered to follow the link. Thanks, though! Now my druid has something decent to turn into till level 8. *grumbles*

 

[mcgeedis]

Ok. I think I know which direction I am going to go. I am taking Vow of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds. I think it completely fits into the character that I want (eschewing material goods and embracing mother nature).

The next step then is, what animals can I wildshape into in a winter/arctic world? Dinosaurs are ruled out. As are many jungle creatures. The DM said he would allow winter versions of many animals (i.e., snow leopard, Siberian tiger, etc...). Can anyone think of decent animals that are available and would make sense for a cold world?

 

[Jack Simth]

Ok. I think I know which direction I am going to go. I am taking Vow of Poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds. I think it completely fits into the character that I want (eschewing material goods and embracing mother nature).

The next step then is, what animals can I wildshape into in a winter/arctic world? Dinosaurs are ruled out. As are many jungle creatures. The DM siad he would allow winter versions of many animals (i.e., snow leopard, siberian tiger, etc...). Can anyone think of decent animals that are available and would make sense for a cold world?

Check out the Dire animals. At 5th, you can get the Dire Badger or Dire Weasel (either of which are better than most the "Normal" counterparts. The Dire Bear, Dire Tiger, Dire Lion, Dire Ape (for the reach) are all really good choices once you get Large Wildshape (at 8th - due note that it works like Alternate Form, which doesn't impose a HD limit, and Wildshape doesn't itself impose a HD limit - so you can technically be a 12 HD Dire Bear at 8th).

Oh, and do remember: Endure Elements is on the Druid list as a 1st level spell. Lasts 24 hours. As a spell, it works between forms. If you have enough ranks in Knowledge(Nature) to be "familiar" with the dinosaurs, they're feasible.

Edit:
Huh... running the numbers, the Dire Tiger (call it a Siberian Tiger, maybe) is superior to the Megaraptor anyway (in all things except speed and Con) ... oh, and there's no HD limit on Alternate Form or Wildshape! Yay! Still Large, though, so not an option until 8th. Dire Ape (call it a Yeti) has reach and a better average damage output due to Rend up to a point, but lower AC and no Pounce.

Edit 2:
Wait - Vow of Poverty? Technically, you keep all Vow of Poverty bonuses in Wildshape (unlike when you wildshape with equipment; also technically, you can't have your Holly and Mistletoe, as it isn't on the list of permissible things).... oh, and do look up the various Exalted Wildshape feats. You might also want to try a 1-level dip into Monk - it'll boost your AC considerably.

 

[mcgeedis]

Oh, and do remember: Endure Elements is on the Druid list as a 1st level spell. Lasts 24 hours. As a spell, it works between forms. If you have enough ranks in Knowledge(Nature) to be "familiar" with the dinosaurs, they're feasible.

Nice! This DM would probably go for it. It sounds feasible to me at least. And who wouldn't want knowledge nature?

Wait - Vow of Poverty? Technically, you keep all Vow of Poverty bonuses in Wildshape (unlike when you wildshape with equipment; also technically, you can't have your Holly and Mistletoe, as it isn't on the list of permissible things).... oh, and do look up the various Exalted Wildshape feats. You might also want to try a 1-level dip into Monk - it'll boost your AC considerably.

What am I missing about Holly and Mistletoe? Vow of Poverty does allow for spell component pouch. Does this have anything to do with divine focus? If so, how can I get around that? I mean really - would you consider holly and mistletoe to be a material possession?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

its a silly bug in vop. It doesn't expressly say you can use holly thus some think you cannot. same say its in your component bag. others do not. two fixes i see. Native Americans believe you cant own nature or the land, thus you never could own the holly in the first place, or...you don't posses the holly, the holly posses you. like a vassal of mother earth kind of thing. these are both well within the sprite of druids and vop.

on another note about vop. its really strong. ever much more so with a druid then a monk. At times you might find yourself too strong, so you will want to hold back your true power, or some people may cry foul. Thier are a few wildshapes that when combined with vop give you a ac like a god, and this is pre buffing. Although if some people do cry foul, just show them that a druid with dragon hide fullplate and tower shield with wild enhancment does in fact get a higher ac then vop.

 

[mcgeedis]

on another note about vop. its really strong. ever much more so with a druid then a monk. At times you might find yourself too strong, so you will want to hold back your true power, or some people may cry foul. Thier are a few wildshapes that when combined with vop give you a ac like a god, and this is pre buffing. Although if some people do cry foul, just show them that a druid with dragon hide fullplate and tower shield with wild enhancment does in fact get a higher ac then vop.

Good to note, Moon Lancer. I am playing in a campaign where most of the guys really know what they are doing. I think one guy is going to be something like, swordsage/warblade, and another is going toward Ultimate Magus. Heck. One guy is a flying 3'6" cleric or something or another. So, this is really my first attempt at really pushing the limits of character building. I did have an effort with a changeling rogue/fighter/warshaper.... but that is another story...

 

[AnonymousOne]

I mean really - would you consider holly and mistletoe to be a material possession?

Depends on how much a hard-ass your DM is.

In all fairness though, I would say no, that spell components and those things which are requisite for the druid to protect the wild would not violate this vow, especially if the components are natural.

 

[Jack Simth]

Nice! This DM would probably go for it. It sounds feasible to me at least. And who wouldn't want knowledge nature?

Anyone short on Int who wants Handle Animal, Ride, Spot, Listen, and Concentration more. The Druid actually has a reasonably nice skill list.

It's feasible as long as the temperature holds; -50 Fahrenheit is only about -45 Centigrade, and that's the "no-save needed" limit while under the effects of Endure Elements.

Although I think you get Endure Elements at around 3rd from Vow of Poverty anyway....

What am I missing about Holly and Mistletoe? Vow of Poverty does allow for spell component pouch. Does this have anything to do with divine focus? If so, how can I get around that? I mean really - would you consider holly and mistletoe to be a material possession?

It's a rather silly technicality.

As written, the VoP character can't have anything, with a specific list of exceptions. The list does not include a Divine Focus. A Druid's Holly and Mistletoe, being a Divine Focus, is by definition not in the 5 gp Spell Component Pouch that you are permitted. Nor is the Holly and Mistletoe called out separately. But a feat based around a religious vow doesn't let you have a holy symbol? Umm.....

Now, the Holly and Mistletoe have a price tag of "-" which is usually interpreted to mean that it costs nothing at all. The poor don't gain anything when you sell it on their behalf, as you can't sell it for anything anyway. But you technically can't have it.

To get around it, mention it to the DM before the DM mentions it to you.