Druids

[szilard]

Except you can't cast spells in that form with natural spell (it's not wild shape), AND you have to give up your animal companion.

...and the forms are much more limited than wild shape.

-Stuart

 

[blargney the second]

You guys obviously haven't tried that variant as a dragonborn goliath.
-blarg

 

[mcgeedis]

So, what are the main advantages of Wild Shape? After re-reading about the ability, it appears that the main advantage is you just gain the STR, CON, and DEX of the animal, and that is it!.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you don't gain the special attacks from your new form (like improved grab or pounce for leopards, etc...), and you retain your own BAB? My saves stay the same as the original form two, correct? Do you gain the feats of your new form (back t the leopard example with the feats of alertness or weapon finesse)?

Can someone take the time and give me the full rundown of Wild Shape? Perhaps a list of the pros and cons? Because I am seriously reconsidering going druid now.

Thanks!

 

[Moon-Lancer]

well pre errata you did get the ex: attacks, bonus feats that the animal got, and possibly even its bonus skills, I forget what you get but its considerably less with the errata.

Its kind of disapointing, as i think their is more incentive to go tank with a druid more then their ever was before, due to wildshape being less of a utility ability.

However a utility druid is still viable if you take exalted wildshape, as that gives you all ex and su abilities and the celestial templet for free + lets you wildshape into cr 3 or less magical bests. blink dog a-ok. dragon wildshape gives you all the su and ex abilities as well. pyro dragon with 3.0 disintegrate as a line effect. yes please.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, per the SRD, Wildshape functions like Alternate Form - which includes Ex special attacks - so if you turn into a Deinonychus (at 5th), or a Megaraptor at 8th, you indeed get Pounce - with four natural attacks.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, per the SRD, Wildshape functions like Alternate Form - which includes Ex special attacks - so if you turn into a Deinonychus (at 5th), or a Megaraptor at 8th, you indeed get Pounce - with four natural attacks.

Except the stupid wildshape rules prevent you from becoming a Deinonychus at 5th level, as it is a large creature, and wotc thought it was ok for halflings to take medium sizes but broken for humans to take large sizes till level 8. Bit of a rant, but I just started a druid at level 4 (now 5), and that rule irks me ot no end. I had been defaulting to lion every time, as it fits my character concept (eventually going into Lion of Talisid PrC), but the one damage dice difference from leopard to lion is apparantly too broken to allow.

My druid advice from my thus far limited experience: NEVER give up wildshape for ANYTHING. Bear in mind, I kinda hate wildshape, and consider it a burden to use and keep track of. I'd have gladly gone w/ the Swift and Deadly Hunter variant from unearthed arcana, and was planning to. Then, I looked at my options as I levelled in the non-core books. My gods, it's like wotc thinks wildshape is the only ability druids get! Almost every PrC, feat, or spell either requires wildshape or grants extra benefits for having it (either the ability itself, or the Natural Spell feat, by extension).

One neat trick a templated were-tiger (only took the first level of the 3 level template, which replaces the LA), who chose the race cause she just wanted to play a tiger, uses: a use activated ghost sound amulet around her neck. The DM allowed this to let her communicate with the party. If your DM allows this, it's a cheap way to off-set one of the prime deterrants of staying in wildshape all day. Of course, if there's another PC in the party who can use speak w/ animals (possibly just a gnome, if you stick to burrowing animals), this isn't necessary.

Another interesting trick I was considering: one level dip into cleric. Pick a domain or two for some awesome spells, like Travel, Luck, or Celerity. Take domain spontinaeity. Rejoice in the fact that it explicitly allows you to drop "prepared divine spells" to cast your domain spells, w/o specifying cleric at all.

As for good low level spells to drop before entering melee, if you can use spell compendium, I make heavy use of both Spiritjaws and Kelpstrand. The former is like spiritual weapon except it also grapples and can pin. The latter eventually targets multiple enemies for a rather large grapple mod (strictly reading the description, I believe it is BAB + caster level + wis mod) if you can make a touch attack (like that's hard!). It allows you to keep enemies grappled whilst not leaving you hindered in the least. The only downside is, if you miss, or the first time they break free, the spell's effectively over. If you're not wildshaping, Shillelagh, Brambles, etc... are always handy.

 

[Jack Simth]

Except the stupid wildshape rules prevent you from becoming a Deinonychus at 5th level, as it is a large creature, and wotc thought it was ok for halflings to take medium sizes but broken for humans to take large sizes till level 8. Bit of a rant, but I just started a druid at level 4 (now 5), and that rule irks me ot no end. I had been defaulting to lion every time, as it fits my character concept (eventually going into Lion of Talisid PrC), but the one damage dice difference from leopard to lion is apparantly too broken to allow.

Err... the Deinonychus I linked to says it's a Medium Animal. The Megaraptor I linked to is listed as a Large Animal, hence listing it for 8th level (also, incidentally, the number of HD it has).

Also.... a Lion has more strength (5 points more), damage, and a MUCH better grapple than the Leopard. The extra strength makes you more likely to hit as a lion, which increases your damage output (by 10%). The extra strength also adds to damage directly. The Lion has more primary attacks (two claws, bite, rake vs. the Leopards Bite, two claws, rake) and so makes better use of strength to begin with. Tack on to that the little issue that EVERY attack of the Lion is a die size bigger, and:

Against AC 15, a Druid with a BAB of +3 (5th level, if the lion were permitted at that point) is looking at (ignoring crits):

Lion:
2 claws +7 for 1d4+5 (8 or better, 65% chance each claw, average damage per hit 7.5)
Bite +2 for 1d8+2 (13 or better, 40% chance to hit, average damage per hit 6.5)
Average damage per round: 2*0.65*7.5+0.40*6.5=12.35

Leopard (no Weapon Finess, sorry; you don't get the feats):
Bite +6 for 1d6+3 (9 or better, 60% chance to hit, average damage per hit 6.5)
2 claws +1 for 1d3+1 (14 or better, 35% chance to hit, average damage per hit 3.5)
Average damage per round: 0.60*6.5+2*0.35*3.5=6.35

It's reasonable to force the Druid to hold off for a little while on becoming one, if the Leopard is a reasonable critter for 5th; the lion nearly doubles your damage output in comparison. Most effects that boosts damage output (Greater Magic Fang, for instance) will do better on the Lion than on the Leopard, due to the better chance to hit on more attacks (big exceptions being Multiattack which does more for the Leopard than for the Lion, as the Leopard has more secondary natural attacks to begin with, and Weapon Finess, which doesn't help the lion (lion strength higher than Lion dex) but does help the leopard (dex higher than strength)).

 

[Diirk]

Deinonychus was originally a large creature in the 3.5 MM, however it was significantly reworked in the 3.5MM errata and is now a medium sized creature.

 

[Jack Simth]

Ah, confusion by version differences. Gotcha. Good thing I linked to the specific one to which I referred, then.

 

[mcgeedis]

So, just so I am straight, a druid gains the new CON of an animal wildshaped into, but the hitpoints do not go up?

Is this the only instance in 3.5 where there can be a CON increase and the hitpoints don't increase? For example, Raging, Bear's Endurance all give hitpoints, but wildshaping into a whale, the druid still has his original hitpoints.

Was this errata'ed because it was considered too powerful?